Technical Rusty bits - suspension

[smahaley]

As I previously intimated, (iirc) the studs had a round head and had a tack weld to hold them in place/prevent them from turning. It's also possible that they have a round head with a square hidden underneath, like a carriage bolt? I'll see if I can get a look at an old crossmember tomorrow to refresh my memory.

1 - I'd remove the front suspension crossmember (centre support in your parlance) in order to see what's going on and be able to properly work on it. But iirc, removing/replacing the rear stud/bolt is going to be somewhat difficult. You might even have to resort to brute force (note- I didn't say brute force and ignorance), possibly have to cut an access hole, remove old bolt, install a new bolt then weld removed piece back on or cover with a repair .patch.

2 - As previously suggested, you could grind the weld off to separate the shims, if the rotating bar can't be cleaned up by grinding, it can be turned over to present a clean, undamaged face to the shims and mounting point. (afaik the bar is symmetrical).

You've correctly identified the crossmember mountings, so after allowing the penetrating fluid to do its work, an air wrench should work fine.
(I prefer to use a breaker bar myself but then I'm phenomenally strong , don't use torque wrenches either, just use my fingers gently ).

Might I suggest you don't fit the new carpets yet (by all means do a trial install to check for correct fit), as they may get soiled during any bodywork/painting yet? to be done - plus iirc your car is outdoors under a carport so still potentially exposed to bad weather/critters/birds...

Yes - thanks for the guidance; I think I will have to remove it, and I also think I'm going to just replace the crossmember. I did hang onto the shims and noted which bunch goes where, so I *may* be able to approximate and drivable setup - but that pretends that the new crossmember will be exactly like the old one...

Too late - I already put the carpets in. I know I'm risking messing them up - but honestly I needed to do something that I could accomplish in this nice weather while I waited for great advice about crossmembers. AND it's indoor/outdoor carpet that I bought and cut myself, so it has some quirks already. I'll post a pic. I fitted the (repaired) driver's seat just to have a look.

And I will have to go back to the control arms and drill off the old ball joints, bushings, sand, clean, paint them and fit new stuff. Plenty to do!

 

[124BC1]

Fitting a new crossmember might be the most pragmatic/expedient solution unless you're a competent welder.

Nice job on the new carpets, it can be difficult to get the carpet to follow the variations of the car's floor panels, iirc the original's were moulded Boucle? type pile and had a pvc? backing.
I used something similar to line the trunk of one of my cars, iirc, the material was polypropylene? and was a devil to clean because it has a loop pile.

 

[bugsymike]

Fitting a new crossmember might be the most pragmatic/expedient solution unless you're a competent welder.

Nice job on the new carpets, it can be difficult to get the carpet to follow the variations of the car's floor panels, iirc the original's were moulded Boucle? type pile and had a pvc? backing.
I used something similar to line the trunk of one of my cars, iirc, the material was polypropylene? and was a devil to clean because it has a loop pile.

You have just reminded me, on the Lada's, the radio consul was extra and involved drilling through the transmission tunnel to secure it, we quickly found out that the drill bit wound up the cheap factory loop pile from several inches away. The solution was a sharp spike driven in the correct position followed by the screw.

 

[smahaley]

Update - crossmember removed and yes I’ll be replacing it. Also cut the welded shims off the right side arm. If I can get those bushings out I’ll be in good shape …

Also - drilled out the old lower arm ball joints. What a chore!

 

[124BC1]

I found an old crossmember and had a look at it to refresh my increasingly feeble old memory. As I had previously suggested, the lower A arm mounting bolts have round heads not square (but they might indeed be square heads on later cars).

I trepiditiously stuck a finger in the hole in the bottom of the crossmember and could feel the round bolt head, tried hitting the bolt end with a heavy copper mallet (remembering to remove my finger from the hole first!) but it sounded very secure and didn't move at all - suggesting that the bolt either has locating splines/serrations and is pressed into place, or more likely, that it is resistance welded to secure it? (I couldn't see any little tack weld).

I (), reckon it would be feasible to replace the damaged bolt with a new bolt but this would first of all require the old bolt to be removed (going to be difficult if it's resistance welded in place) and then find a way to get the new bolt into place - I don't know if a new bolt could be manipulated into place via the hole in the bottom of the crossmember or if an access port would have to be cut out of the crossmember and then repaired by welding after the new bolt is in place. But is it worth the bother to save, what? approx. $200. I think you've already decided to 'splash the cash' and avoid the likely aggravation.

Here's a few pics of the difficult to remove crossmember bolt/stud that secure the rear of the lower A arm mounting:-




By way of comparison, here's pics of the much easier to remove front bolt/stud that secures the front of the lower A arm mounting:-

 

[124BC1]

---------------

Also - drilled out the old lower arm ball joints. What a chore!
View attachment 482473

Cheer up!
Next time, they'll be easier to remove as they'll only be bolted in place.

 

[smahaley]

Cheer up!
Next time, they'll be easier to remove as they'll only be bolted in place.

So right!

 

[smahaley]

I found an old crossmember and had a look at it to refresh my increasingly feeble old memory. As I had previously suggested, the lower A arm mounting bolts have round heads not square (but they might indeed be square heads on later cars).

I trepiditiously stuck a finger in the hole in the bottom of the crossmember and could feel the round bolt head, tried hitting the bolt end with a heavy copper mallet (remembering to remove my finger from the hole first!) but it sounded very secure and didn't move at all - suggesting that the bolt either has locating splines/serrations and is pressed into place, or more likely, that it is resistance welded to secure it? (I couldn't see any little tack weld).

I (), reckon it would be feasible to replace the damaged bolt with a new bolt but this would first of all require the old bolt to be removed (going to be difficult if it's resistance welded in place) and then find a way to get the new bolt into place - I don't know if a new bolt could be manipulated into place via the hole in the bottom of the crossmember or if an access port would have to be cut out of the crossmember and then repaired by welding after the new bolt is in place. But is it worth the bother to save, what? approx. $200. I think you've already decided to 'splash the cash' and avoid the likely aggravation.

Here's a few pics of the difficult to remove crossmember bolt/stud that secure the rear of the lower A arm mounting:-

View attachment 482474View attachment 482475View attachment 482476View attachment 482477View attachment 482479
View attachment 482481

By way of comparison, here's pics of the much easier to remove front bolt/stud that secures the front of the lower A arm mounting:-

View attachment 482482View attachment 482483

Exactly: I saw all the same, and ventured some ideas about trying to free the round bolt head but quickly abandoned that idea as my very vivid imagination foresaw awful things happening to my fingers and to the crossmember structure.

Cash shall be splashed. After the April wedding of son 1.

 

[s130]

@bugsymike
I remember the Fiat shims as being, the same as you say, circular washers, iirc, I usually encountered 1 thick (i.e. normal) washer and a variable no. of thin shims.
However... an old Fiat parts book I have shows a thick 'U' shaped washer/shim and thinner full circle shims. This thick 'U' shaped washer/shim appears to be part of what is welded to the lower A arm pivot pin on OP's car, as seen in the picture below the video in post #66.

Here's a screenshot of shims available from one of the US parts suppliers, showing shims with a cut-out (what I mean by 'U' shaped) enabling these to be fitted without removing the lower pivot, as bugsymike described in detail in an earlier post.

View attachment 482055




On vehicles destined for use in competition, I was always concerned about using 'U' shaped thin gauge shims in case they might spread when heavily loaded resulting in the lower A arm pivot pin becoming loose, so after final setting of the suspension angles, I used to then compress the coil spring, remove the lower arm pivot pin from the crossmember studs/bolts and replace the U shaped shims with full circle shims of the exact same total thickness, then reassemble. If I had no shim-stock, I used to make my own thin shims from tinplate e.g. old baked bean tins, canned fruit etc - the sheet metal in these cans, iirc, varies from 7 to 10 thou (0.007 - 0.010" ; 0.18 - 0.25mm)

On the Ritmo / Strada the the U shims were not used. Instead a full washer(s) are used. P/N: 970490 - 1mm thick - only one size - use multiple is required.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264291301576

What follows next is not for the faint hearted, but what and how I adjusted the rear toe .... enjoy NOT - see attached txt file

NOTE! toe setting for Ritmo / Strada Abarth 125TC & 130TC so other models may/will have different toe values.

Brings back memories best forgotten. Pig of and tedious job!

 

[bugsymike]

On the Ritmo / Strada the the U shims were not used. Instead a full washer(s) are used. P/N: 970490 - 1mm thick - only one size - use multiple is required.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264291301576

What follows next is not for the faint hearted, but what and how I adjusted the rear toe .... enjoy NOT - see attached txt file

NOTE! toe setting for Ritmo / Strada Abarth 125TC & 130TC so other models may/will have different toe values.

Brings back memories best forgotten. Pig of and tedious job!

All I had to do was the front castor and camber on new Lada's using a Dunlop Castor and Camber Gauge and as you say no horse shoe shims, just round mostly 1mm but they did have some thick ones too. They were always miles out and a bit time consuming.

 

[smahaley]

@s130 and @bugsymike i will celebrate if/when I get to a place of adjusting things! And I appreciate the file - my current struggles are just with removing bushings. I just got the upper arm bushings out and am scratching my noggin over how to get the lowers out (even with YouTube and manuals - lots of rust - have been heating and tapping and spraying…).

 

[bugsymike]

If you are going to replace the bottom swivel arms, can you just disc cut either end just behind the bushes if all you want to keep is the lower wishbones? Then press the bushes out.

 

[s130]

@s130 and @bugsymike i will celebrate if/when I get to a place of adjusting things! And I appreciate the file - my current struggles are just with removing bushings. I just got the upper arm bushings out and am scratching my noggin over how to get the lowers out (even with YouTube and manuals - lots of rust - have been heating and tapping and spraying…).

I have on paper the simple maths / school boy geometry calculations for setting the angles. All based around wheel diamater and the swivel arm bolt locations.

If required I can probably dig them out. The tricky part is getting the backs axle centred around the front axle. I did this with as i recal a laser spirit level across the each of the back wheels pointing to cards placed in front of the front wheels.

If I were to do this again then I would probably take the car to a four computerised laser wheel aligment specialist to get the basic geometry measurements. Then return home and use basic maths etc. to work out what changes are required for the rear alignment. Make those by shimming and then return to the specialist for a re-measurement.

You could get the specialist to do all the work but unlike some more modern cars the work required for strip down, re-shimming etc. is probably going to break the bank!

 

[bugsymike]

I have on paper the simple maths / school boy geometry calculations for setting the angles. All based around wheel diamater and the swivel arm bolt locations.

If required I can probably dig them out. The tricky part is getting the backs axle centred around the front axle. I did this with as i recal a laser spirit level across the each of the back wheels pointing to cards placed in front of the front wheels.

If I were to do this again then I would probably take the car to a four computerised laser wheel aligment specialist to get the basic geometry measurements. Then return home and use basic maths etc. to work out what changes are required for the rear alignment. Make those by shimming and then return to the specialist for a re-measurement.

You could get the specialist to do all the work but unlike some more modern cars the work required for strip down, re-shimming etc. is probably going to break the bank!

Just a thought, is it possible to use one of the modern builders laser theodolite type tools with an adaptor against some fixed marker points on a wall or something.
Even my old Dunlop wheel alignment gauge can be used to check rear alignment.
I appreciate a good laser system would be ideal, but again even that is only as good as the operator.
Sorry I just reread your piece about using the laser.

 

[smahaley]

If you are going to replace the bottom swivel arms, can you just disc cut either end just behind the bushes if all you want to keep is the lower wishbones? Then press the bushes out.

Yeah I’m trying to keep the swivel arms - but am thinking about using a cutting tool to assist in bushing removal. I’m quitting for the day though!

 

[124BC1]

Yeah I’m trying to keep the swivel arms - but am thinking about using a cutting tool to assist in bushing removal. I’m quitting for the day though!

Did you read all my posts dealing with possible ways of removing the lower A arm bushes? i.e. Posts # 25,34,42,47 and 59....

There is a special tool available for removing/installing these arm bushes but as I previously suggested it's probably not cost effective for a one-off-use (well, 8 uses actually as there are 8 bushes) - however, seeing the tool included and reading through the tool usage instructions might give you some ideas. I think I did suggest that using a hydraulic press made removing the lower bushes a lot easier i.e. use the lower arm pivot pin to push out the bushes (do you know anyone with a workshop press or can you get access to one? Just be careful not to bend the A arm.. ).

Front A arm bush tool:-

Instructions for using the bush removal/installation tools:-

I noticed there were signs of some welding having been carried out on one of the front crossmembers shown and also somebody likes negative camber, going by the number of shims installed. (too much negative camber causes the lower ball joints to wear faster and makes the steering heavier).

 

[124BC1]

On the Ritmo / Strada the the U shims were not used. Instead a full washer(s) are used. P/N: 970490 - 1mm thick - only one size - use multiple is required.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264291301576

What follows next is not for the faint hearted, but what and how I adjusted the rear toe .... enjoy NOT - see attached txt file

NOTE! toe setting for Ritmo / Strada Abarth 125TC & 130TC so other models may/will have different toe values.

Brings back memories best forgotten. Pig of and tedious job!

I think there may be a slight typo in your txt file - where you say the rear left wheel is pointing to 30 mm outside the front right wheel, I assume you meant to write :- the rear left wheel was pointing to 30mm outside the front left wheel? But this doesn't make any real difference to your explanation - just had me confused as to how the left wheel could be toed-in so much...

 

[124BC1]

Just a thought, is it possible to use one of the modern builders laser theodolite type tools with an adaptor against some fixed marker points on a wall or something.
Even my old Dunlop wheel alignment gauge can be used to check rear alignment.
I appreciate a good laser system would be ideal, but again even that is only as good as the operator.
Sorry I just reread your piece about using the laser.

I recently helped a friend (who's also a former Fiat dealership technician) to set up the rear suspension on a Toyota MR2 - we used 2 x Lidl (c. 150mm") laser spirit levels which having built-in magnets, allowing them to be 'stuck' to the rear brake discs and their light beams shone onto a large white board positioned behind the car, (so the readings had to be reversed i.e. toe-in became toe-out on the board) onto which we had carefully marked the exact centre line of the car, then marked where the light beams shone with the rear wheels set exactly parallel, than adjusted the toe-ie (which showed as toe-out on the rear board. This was checked later with the car on it's wheels using normal tracking gauges and was spot-on.

 

[124BC1]

To check just wheel toe-in or toe-out at home, you could use a Gunson's Trakrite tool, great for a quick check and to guide any adjustments but best to get a proper wheel alignment check carried out afterwards as the Trackrite doesn't check the other angles e.g. castor and camber angles (essentially it's checking the side thrust of a rolling tyre against the road).

 

[124BC1]

All I had to do was the front castor and camber on new Lada's using a Dunlop Castor and Camber Gauge and as you say no horse shoe shims, just round mostly 1mm but they did have some thick ones too. They were always miles out and a bit time consuming.

Back in my dealership workshop days, we didn't have time to mess around (we were on-the-clock for each job and expected to match/beat the manufacturer's scheduled repair times) and used to reset camber/caster angles but not over a pit as you did, we had a 4 post ramp .

One of our guys developed a technique to reasonably accurately determine the thickness of shims to be added - he did so by loosening the lower arm pivot pin nuts, then gradually bashed a screwdriver between the arm and shim pack until the camber gauge gave the desired reading, he made a felt tip pen mark on his (tapered blade) screwdriver next to the shims, then selected shims to match the thickness of the sc/dr blade at this mark, inserted the new shims, tightened the lower arm pivot mounting nuts and double-checked the camber reading.
Most of the time he got it right 1st attempt. Of course, he inserted U (or Horseshoe) shaped shims and if he had to remove a shim, it had to be cut to remove it (as you previously related).
Nowadays, of course, there's all sorts of wheel alignment equipment that can do wonderous things incl. from what I've been told, take initial readings, freeze the readings display, then allowing the car to be raised with the wheels sender units still attached, make adjustments with the wheels hanging but be able to see what your adjustments are having on the original initial readings, then lower car onto it's wheels and double-check the new settings.