General RUST - and what to do about it.

[UNO-MK1]

Today I fixed a rust hole in my Swift , and hearing the rumor that UNO's might have rust problems too (my UNO doesn't have rust) , I thought that you all would like to see how rust is REALLY fixed.


Below is the hole as enlarged by my friendly yearly vehicle inspection man.

But it really was much bigger.
Rust is always bigger than it looks.

A pattern is made onto paper.....

..and then transfered onto some sheet metal.

The patch is cut.
This will fit INTO the hole with NO OVERLAP in the joints.

Panel beaters will lay a large piece over the rust hole and tack it down here and there , leaving lap joints (that WILL rust) and give a low strength repair.

The patch is carefully bent into shape.

And the paint is removed.

This now fits perfectly into the hole I made.
**again , no lap joints**

Here it is tacked into position.
All edges have been sanded and heavily wire brushed to take away all remaining rust.

It is then fully welded all around.
Any small holes can be filled with weld if required.

After that , I use a flappy sanding disc in the grinder to smooth the welds.

No filler is applied , only a coat of red oxide paint (or your anti rust preference) and two coats of under-body bitumen.

A hole was added so that any water that might enter this section can drain out totally eliminating future rust problems in this section.

Next up to come when this is dry , another coat of bitumen on the outside and some paint sprayed inside and then some rust protection goop. (in through the hole)

Eezy Peezy.


gW


Picture troubles? Try the files directly.

http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust01.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust02.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust03.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust04.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust05.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust06.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust07.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust08.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust09.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/onegammyleg/temp/fiat/rust10.jpg

 

[custard]

pics dont show for me
load quicker as attachments

 

[custard]

Today I fixed a rust hole in my Swift , and hearing the rumor that UNO's might have rust problems too (my UNO doesn't have rust) , I thought that you all would like to see how rust is REALLY fixed.


Below is the hole as enlarged by my friendly yearly vehicle inspection man.





But it really was much bigger.
Rust is always bigger than it looks.




A pattern is made onto paper.....




..and then transfered onto some sheet metal.




The patch is cut.
This will fit INTO the hole with NO OVERLAP in the joints.

Panel beaters will lay a large piece over the rust hole and tack it down here and there , leaving lap joints (that WILL rust) and give a low strength repair.




The patch is carefully bent into shape.




And the paint is removed.




This now fits perfectly into the hole I made.
**again , no lap joints**

Here it is tacked into position.



It is then fully welded all around.
Any small holes can be filled with weld if required.

After that , I use a flappy sanding disc in the grinder to smooth the welds.





No filler is applied , only a coat of red oxide paint (or your anti rust preference) and two coats of under-body bitumen.

A hole was added so that any water that might enter this section can drain out totally eliminating future rust problems in this section.




Next up to come when this is dry , another coat of bitumen on the outside and some paint sprayed inside and then some rust protection goop. (in through the hole)

Eezy Peezy.


gW

....................

 

[Uno driver]

What did you use to cut rusty metal from the car?

 

[Andy Monty]

this might be of interest Uno

http://www.bilthamber.com/dynaxs50.html

 

[UNO-MK1]

What did you use to cut rusty metal from the car?

Only an 115mm electric grinder was used today for this job , but tools like chisels and tin snips of course come in handy for this sort of work.

The welder was a small mig welder.


gW

 

[Biz]

Good easy clean, An example that all unos owners should follow!

You would have hated the Vauxhall astra i did!
The metal was bad that the earth clamp wouldnt even earth through it! lol

 

[Unoturbo'd]

a man after my own heart lol good job!

 

[antsuno2]

Nice home diy job there, we all love pics, just one thing tho, real panel beaters would not tack a crap plate over the hole, thats what a mechanic in an mot station would do, keep up the good work Ant!

 

[UNO-MK1]

--real panel beaters would not tack a crap plate over the hole, thats what a mechanic in an mot station would do--

Well , the world is full of un-real panel beaters then and in 20 years in the industry I have never seen a panel beater do rust work properly.
Only those that do restoration work will do a joint without laps ,and then fully weld it - of course they will then make you pay for it.

Typical smash repairers are only interested in fast turn around jobs and will tack a plate , and then bog over the whole thing with filler.

In 6 months the rust is back worse than ever , but thats OK with him , hes got your money and they offer no guarantees on rust work.

I once had a business arrangement with a panel shop , and when I went in there one day I saw that they had replaced an entire roof panel on a Ford sedan.
It was tack welded at 15cm intervals all the way around , and then filler was placed over the lap joints.

If that thing ever rolled over, the owners would get an instant sunroof.

Thats the sort of work that 'professionals' do.

I ended my business dealings with that work shop immediately.

The only thing more dodgy than a panel beater , is a politician that smiles.

In MY workshop however I used to offer a 10 year guarantee on my rust repairs , and never had to honor it even once.**
That is why I used to get classic , custom , and exotic cars to work on.


gW


**Rust . or I should say restoration work wasn't my main work , but it filled the gaps and payed the bills when the racing car work didn't.**

 

[Biz]

Well , the world is full of un-real panel beaters then and in 20 years in the industry I have never seen a panel beater do rust work properly.
Only those that do restoration work will do a joint without laps ,and then fully weld it - of course they will then make you pay for it.

Typical smash repairers are only interested in fast turn around jobs and will tack a plate , and then bog over the whole thing with filler.

In 6 months the rust is back worse than ever , but thats OK with him , hes got your money and they offer no guarantees on rust work.

I once had a business arrangement with a panel shop , and when I went in there one day I saw that they had replaced an entire roof panel on a Ford sedan.
It was tack welded at 15cm intervals all the way around , and then filler was placed over the lap joints.

If that thing ever rolled over, the owners would get an instant sunroof.

Thats the sort of work that 'professionals' do.

I ended my business dealings with that work shop immediately.

The only thing more dodgy than a panel beater , is a politician that smiles.

In MY workshop however I used to offer a 10 year guarantee on my rust repairs , and never had to honor it even once.**
That is why I used to get classic , custom , and exotic cars to work on.


gW


**Rust . or I should say restoration work wasn't my main work , but it filled the gaps and payed the bills when the racing car work didn't.**

Excellent mate!

Fellas like yourself are few and far between

just curios what race cars did you work on?

 

[antsuno2]

depends on where in the world you are, i am a panel beater (restoration being a strong point) and like to think i do an excellent job, like its your own car the boss says to us, so only the highest quality leaves our place and we are well respected in the trade, you shouldnt tar everyone with the same brush! Ant!

 

[thepottleflump]

depends on where in the world you are, i am a panel beater (restoration being a strong point) and like to think i do an excellent job, like its your own car the boss says to us, so only the highest quality leaves our place and we are well respected in the trade, you shouldnt tar everyone with the same brush! Ant!

Well said, it seems a rather general comment made in the last post! I don't know Ant personally but must say that he's shared some examples of his work on the forum, offers really good advice and clearly does a top job!

 

[UNO-MK1]

--you shouldnt tar everyone with the same brush! Ant!

Ok ,then , how about doing a survey.

You could ask , ''Who has had panels beater carry out a rust repair on their car , and the rust came back in a relatively shot time..?''

I would guess that 80% or more would say YES.

Then you can tell all of each and every one of them that its not true.

The fact is , panel beaters don't do restoration work.
Most are not trained ,experience and use on a daily bases as the main tools of trade tools such as ,the English wheel , the planishing hammer, wood slappers and shrinking or stretching hammers.

Please tell me - When was the last time you made a fender for a car from a single sheet of flat steel from scratch ?
OR..
When was the last time you took a fended that had been pushed in 15 cm and then returned it to its correct shape without the use of body filler or a panel replacement.

You see , thats the difference between what you think do, and the type of work that I have DONE.


gW

 

[UNO-MK1]

Excellent mate!
Fellas like yourself are few and far between
just curios what race cars did you work on?

Hi Biz.

Well , the list is extensive , but I was head engineer on a Nissan WRC team for 2 and a half years , I worked as a engineering consultant on a local team here that runs a Porsche street sedan powered by a fuel injected 5 litre Ford V8 - specializing in curing their braking problem with their Brembo 6 piston calipers.
Umm , advised on a V8 powered ALfA GTV sports sedan for a short time.

Lets see , numerous privately owned club racing cars of various makes.

Did pioneering turbo development work for street racing applications back in the early days when no one really had heard of turbos.
Construction of custom intake and exhaust manifolds for Turbo engines.

I have also done quite a bit of EFI tuning , and as I am an old geezer , I have tons of experience with dual Webbers , Delortos and so on.

Other racing car work was fabricating floor pans and fire walls to allow the fitting of much larger engines.
Also I have done a lot of custom suspension as well , making up of links for the rear ends of live axle cars and on and on and .....

I was also involved in custom made sportscars for a while (Lotus 7 replicas) and had federal government approval of my work from the country I lived in at the time.
This work involved making custom made tube chassis frames.

Then we could go on to individual racing engines that I have built , but thats even a more comprehensive list.
But suffice it to say that it involved blueprinting , balancing, and head work.

I am a qualified welder in MIG , TIG and ARC to ISO standards to a level that allows me to work on the construction of ocean going vessels (big boats) and most air craft welding work. (not all ,their is some air craft welding that is highly specialized)
My certification covers standard mild steel , high strength steels like Chr-Mo = chrome molly , magnesium alloys and of course all aluminium grades of metals.
These materials can can as thin as a piece of paper of as thick as a book - I can do them all.



I talk the talk , but I also walk the walk. !


gW


**PS ., and NO , I don't do any of this work for free , or for beers --- so dont ask.

 

[alexGS]

Oh, here we go

antsuno2 has done panel fabrication - his skills are definitely up to it - at the end of the day, it's a commercial world, and you get what you pay for. I expect that replacing a wing with a pattern part is a lot more cost-effective than making something up from scratch.

We really should focus on the positives - how to do a good job - as this thread was doing, rather than assert that everyone else is doing a bad job.

A lot of us have rust on our Unos, so it is a good idea to show how it's fixed properly - I agree.

-Alex

 

[UNO-MK1]

--We really should focus on the positives--

-Alex

Hi Alex.....Oh I am very happy and have a positive view of the panel repair trade as a whole.

By fixing other peoples lazy and low standard work , It helped me to be able to retire at 38 years of age.

Now I spend 1/4 of the year holidaying under palm trees taking it easy and thinking about those ones that don't excel in their trade and struggle for their whole lives on minimum wage.


gW

 

[ralphnz]

I thought i'd start off here by saying ' I like panelbeaters'. And whats wrong with a patch anyway? At the end of the day who sees the job if its bogged nicely. Most people on the forum will be dead in 20 years. Let it rust, in 10 years you'll wish it had rusted completely away because it'll probably cost too much to get rid of, and too much to keep.

:idea::idea: I'm going electric.

 

[UNO-MK1]

-- And whats wrong with a patch anyway? At the end of the day who sees the job if its bogged nicely.--
:idea::idea: I'm going electric.

Excellent news on the electric.

A patch is done correctly can be OK.
If not done right , eg , with lap joints instead of buts you get moisture traps.
If buts are used , then little or no filler is needed.
Although modern fillers (again not often used by normal panel beaters because of its high cost (eg $150 for a 4 liter tin) are very durable , no filler will last if rust comes up under it.

Take for example the lower section of a door skin.
It may take 20 years from new for a rust problem to require a repair ,, if you lap joint a patch you will NOT get 20 years b4 the next repair is needed.

I personally have seen hundreds of times lapped patches that have re-rusted and bubbled , bulged and made the filler fall out , or at least crack
The crack in the filler then makes another water trap on the outside.

This can happen within a couple of years ---not 10 or 20.

So if a person is wanting to keep their car for some time and want to do the job in a way that is durable , then the way they patch rust IS very important , and thats why I could give a ten year guarantee , something that is relatively unheard of in the panel beating trade.


gW

 

[antsuno2]

You definately talk the talk mk1uno, Ive only been doing it 20 years as well, at the first 10 years in classic restoration working for stratstones in wilmslow (main dealer for aston martin, ferrari, porsche, rolls royce, etc) where i restored many many astons, old rollers, which is where i learnt my corrosion skills, and yes i can make part panels, sills. etc. etc. and i can weld anything including net curtains, just made a roll cage for a mates grale from scratch, england has the best old school beaters in the world as most people know, which is why nz, australia are soaking them up,5 left our place in a year, most of the beaters i have ever known turn out top notch work but true there are cowboys out there, but there are also people on a budget who just want the car back on the road, not arsed that the repaired patch will last a few years, they prob sell it before it rots back off, i have seen patches welded on cars in the past that have rotted around the plate that has been welded years previous, you keep blowing your trumpet pal, I have thought in the past i am the best but there are others on the same par, not everyone else is crap, currently restoring my integral, Ant!