Technical Running bad, cylinder head

[koalar]

Car been in a minor accident

I was there but told it was just the windscreen

But as the insurance offered £1600

So its gone to the maker in the sky

The JB weld cylinder head fix out lasted the car in the end

 

[Keepthe12alive]

I will not right it off just yet.

I fired up and has good compression.

had a bit of luck. The pits run from cylinder 1 to 2 under the fire ring. But not quite to the edge about .5mm one side and 1mm the other.

its going to be a puddle of JB Weld capped by the gasket holding it all together

wish I had taken a better photo of the block. The surface finish was quite bad, also the back edge of the fly cutter has been dragging by a thou or two. Shows that they aren't too critical and the Viton coating fills some small imperfections

Was the car able to survive? I'been through it and this is sounding even more like my car

 

[Keepthe12alive]

Right let's start with the driving symptoms

Knocking noise when accelerating cold engine, clear up when hot

poor power at lower revs, bogs down then picks up, clears up when hot

stalls at junctions

erratic idle, revs rising and falling, sometimes a bit shaky at idle

judder on pulling off

misfire can be heard from the exhaust

poor fuel economy

occasionally need the coolant top up and occasionally a gurgling noise after you switch the engine off

This actually exactly describes my car -- thank you for this thread

 

[koalar]

Confirmed the head gasket had gone first with a compression test

But yep car lasted fine ran okay, 220 psi compression test give or take 10 psi

Even survived a later core plugs failure after the repair

There fairly simple basic engines, they aren't made to find tolerances

From memory

Cambelt
JB weld
Antifreeze
Head gasket kit
Cam/crank Locking tools
Head bolts
RTV sealant

Was all that was needed, plus time and effort


I have a good selection of tool which helps, some of the bolts on the engine mount needed 3/8" sockets others I used 1/2"

 

[Keepthe12alive]

e if you remove the HT lead from cylinder 1 or 2

Confirmed the head gasket had gone first with a compression test

But yep car lasted fine ran okay, 220 psi compression test give or take 10 psi

Even survived a later core plugs failure after the repair

There fairly simple basic engines, they aren't made to find tolerances

From memory

Cambelt
JB weld
Antifreeze
Head gasket kit
Cam/crank Locking tools
Head bolts
RTV sealant

Was all that was needed, plus time and effort


I have a good selection of tool which helps, some of the bolts on the engine mount needed 3/8" sockets others I used 1/2"

You are amazing -- thank you

also, does that list include any need for skimming or trading block/head warping?

Just at wits end bc money is very, very tight and I need this car for work\

also apologies -- I didn't see that this thread had several pages and I didn't see the rest of the story

 

[Keepthe12alive]

Its had a hard life since being repaired
mostly short journeys 3 to 6 times a day
been up some steep hills around Leek and a bit of motorway
still fine. Its payed for the repair several times over in saved bus tickets. So everyone is happy.

Do you remember what you meant by it having a hard life after repair?

 

[koalar]

I didn't skim the head, the block was worse than the head

Maximum permissable amount removed is 4 thousands of an inch, the maximum permissable amount quoted by the gasket manufacturer is 2 and a half thou

There's quite a bit of leeway, for example 5 thou across the whole length will still clamp down flat tyre easily , where as 5 thou across while properly still work fine but isn't going to clamp flat

 

[Keepthe12alive]

I didn't skim the head, the block was worse than the head

Maximum permissable amount removed is 4 thousands of an inch, the maximum permissable amount quoted by the gasket manufacturer is 2 and a half thou

There's quite a bit of leeway, for example 5 thou across the whole length will still clamp down flat tyre easily , where as 5 thou across while properly still work fine but isn't going to clamp flat

really sorry to keep asking on old thread -- do you have a guide for how you treated the block? Like with the marble and all?

I also can't imagine it's worth trying the head gasket sealer from the bottle



(other part of the story is that I had the whole steam issue from my other thread, but mechanic and I found that a clamp from a coolant hose under the ignition pack area/left of battery was basically lose, and spraying coolant everywhere. after fixing that, the car ran beautifully for two days until now having all the dramatic symptoms yours had)

 

[koalar]

Sorry the only photo left are what's posted here

I did it similar to this



Except a covered in engineers blue first, then carefully took it down evenly


95% of the time you should be able to just change the gasket without any machining

 

[Keepthe12alive]

Sorry the only photo left are what's posted here

I did it similar to this



Except a covered in engineers blue first, then carefully took it down evenly


95% of the time you should be able to just change the gasket without any machining

Thank you so much for the thought in your responses -- this is really helpful

do you have recommendations on treating the block surface?

Or is it not really possible except to deconstruct the whole block and then do it

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thank you so much for the thought in your responses -- this is really helpful

do you have recommendations on treating the block surface?

Or is it not really possible except to deconstruct the whole block and then do it

Sorry, I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be missing something? However I'd say it's very unusual to need to reface a block? I put all pistons at "half mast" and smear a very light coating of grease on the exposed bores and round where the pistons and bores meet to catch any "foreigners" which might find their way down the bores. If there's a lot of gasket material to remove I'll also stuff a rag down each bore to catch it. Then I remove all traces of old gasket with a scraper and lightly clean the face up with some emery mounted on a hard rubber hand pad , one like this works Ok for me: https://www.screwfix.com/p/essentials-sanding-block-68mm-x-125mm/12104 Bear in mind I'm doing this simply to clean the face up, not to correct any unevenness in flatness. A light rub over is all that's needed. When the face is clean I check it with my engineer's straight edge, paying particular attention to the area between the bores. If all is well - and I couldn't tell you the last time I found one that wasn't - I carefully clean the grease, with it's trapped bits of gasket and any other contaminants, out of the bores, clean the face up with something like cellulose thinner or body wipe - any thing which evaporates leaving no deposit behind - and carry on with the job.

I just realized the above sounds like I'm making myself out to be an "expert" on the subject - I'm not. However I've done more than a few at home over the 50 something years I've been "fiddling" with IC engines and even more during the years I worked in garage workshops. The only difference between home and garage was that in garages I found the boss's tended to insisted on sending the heads to the local engineers for a skim as a matter of course. There were times when I could see that there was obviously no need to do this and I questioned it on more than one occasion - because it would tie up that work bay for a day or more while the head was away. The replies always boiled down to the same reasoning, which was: Having it faced pretty much guaranteed the job would be a "good un" with no come back. From a business point of view "come backs" are bad business so maybe he had a point as we very rarely had a come back for work done. On the other hand I can't remember any of the ones I tackled at home going wrong Oh, apart from one of my Imps where I tried to resurrect an old block which I suspected had problems around the top of the bores, but decided to try it anyway. The Imps had a cast iron liner in an otherwise all aluminium block but the liner didn't quite come to the block face so there was aluminium around the top of the bore on which the gasket seated. It was pretty thin and if the engine overheated this thin area of aluminium could break up. This one had just one very small dodgy looking bit which I thought I'd get away with - I didn't! Should have known better, Imps were well known for gasket problems.

 

[koalar]

This is the block after the repair

It is unusual for there to be any damage though

You normally just bolt on a new gasket on

An hour or so later drive it away (if you done one before) probably take a day first time taking your time


I didn't bother with an angle gauge even though I have one, it's up to you

Sellotape the tightening order to the bonnet

Follow the torque instructions with the head gasket yours might be different

Mine was

Nip up all bolts
then tighten to
20 Nm
Then to
30 Nm

Using an artist brush put a dot of paint at 12 o'Clock

Using something similar to this

US PRO 4154 1/2" Dr 72t Extra Long Ratchet 510mm

US PRO Ratchet 4154 In stock . US PRO Tool, BERGEN tools dealers. Automotive tools, Air tools and much more US PRO branded products. Best online prices in all US PRO tools

toolshouse.co.uk

I am no saying buy this one but you need something with a long handle to make turning and seeing the angle easier

Tighten 90 degrees
Then
Tighten a further 90 degrees

All the white dots should be at 6 o'clock

It's kind of scary the first time you do it, as the bolts stretch it does no feel right

I have always done the dot, it has always been a waste of time, but it's a fail safe incase I get interrupted

Be careful fitting the gasket, it fits two way perfectly but one way covers some oil holes

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

View attachment 448942

This is the block after the repair

It is unusual for there to be any damage though

You normally just bolt on a new gasket on

An hour or so later drive it away (if you done one before) probably take a day first time taking your time


I didn't bother with an angle gauge even though I have one, it's up to you

Sellotape the tightening order to the bonnet

Follow the torque instructions with the head gasket yours might be different

Mine was

Nip up all bolts
then tighten to
20 Nm
Then to
30 Nm

Using an artist brush put a dot of paint at 12 o'Clock

Using something similar to this

US PRO 4154 1/2" Dr 72t Extra Long Ratchet 510mm

US PRO Ratchet 4154 In stock . US PRO Tool, BERGEN tools dealers. Automotive tools, Air tools and much more US PRO branded products. Best online prices in all US PRO tools

toolshouse.co.uk

I am no saying buy this one but you need something with a long handle to make turning and seeing the angle easier

Tighten 90 degrees
Then
Tighten a further 90 degrees

All the white dots should be at 6 o'clock

It's kind of scary the first time you do it, as the bolts stretch it does no feel right

I have always done the dot, it has always been a waste of time, but it's a fail safe incase I get interrupted

Be careful fitting the gasket, it fits two way perfectly but one way covers some oil holes

I like the "dot" method. As you say, if you get interrupted it means you don't miss one out. As you say, stretch bolts are "scary" if you haven't done them before.

I know it's probably the pessimistic perfectionist in me, but I wouldn't be happy with one which had that area between the cylinders which hasn't appeared to clean up well. you need a good seal here as blowing between cylinders is a common place for any head gasket to fail. If you got away with it then fair enough, just saying.

 

[koalar]

know it's probably the pessimistic perfectionist in me, but I wouldn't be happy with one which had that area between the cylinders which hasn't appeared to clean up well. you need a good seal here as blowing between cylinders is a common place for any head gasket to fail. If you got away with it then fair enough, just saying.

Looks bad because of the grey JBWeld it is flat with an engineers straight edge, that was approximately a 20 thou pit between the cylinders and a couple of thousand to the water galleries


If you look here it's almost down to the bottom of the original fly cutter marks

Shows nicely how the head gasket steel is harder than the cast iron and the fire ring has indented the block slightly round each cylinder

Unfortunately I no longer have a photo but there was a step between cylinders 3 and 4 from manufacturer, from the trailing edge of the fly cutter