Technical problems with EGR system (error codes P0657-17, P1304-62, P24A4-68)

[theoneandonly]

What worries me is that it is not sure whether cleaning the DPF and the LP-EGR cooler will be sufficient in the long term. I will keep you posted, regards Bert

Just cleaning the LPEGR cooler will work for a period (current experiance says its variable and could be 1 to 2 years). but it will eventualy block the cooler because the DPF is still cracked. Try to get a 2 year warrenty on the fix. Monitor every decent journey with multiecuscan, if required i will come up with the simplest method to monitor.
At least its better than being told to go away.

 

[basbert]

@theoneandonly: that is a good advice ! I will ask about this warranty time .
The first thing i will do when we get the van back is to connect the MES software and check for errors and changes in parameters. Next we will go for a 500 km long drive to see if any regen happens and monitor the F4 parameters you gave us.
The lawyer advised us to get an independent 2nd opinion incl. written report to have a prove of the status of the exhaust system. For this i want to go to a Fiat garage let them do a check.
If there any developments i will post them here. Regards Bert

 

[basbert]

@theoneandonly : when i let fiat do the 2nd opinion check i could point the cracked DPF out to them. What can i tell them to do for a check ?

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly : when i let fiat do the 2nd opinion check i could point the cracked DPF out to them. What can i tell them to do for a check ?

The following are from

ServiceNews_10_023_19

Fiat Service notes for twin egr with specific problems P0401,P0402,P0236,P238 etc

www.fiatforum.com

This should determine you have a cracked DPF

 

[basbert]

@theoneandonoly: that you for the ifnormation. Regards Bert

 

[basbert]

Update on the TWIN EGR system: our camper is running again !!

Finally after 4 weeks, last saturday we could pick up our camper from the garage. The repair on the exhaust system gave the garage quite some trouble. Initially they replaced, with new parts, the High and Low Pressure EGR valves, the MAP sensor, the throttle body, and the EGR cooler. They cleaned the inlet manifold and the DPF, yet there was still an error message. The DPF was sent to a company named Büchli that is specialized in overhauling exhaust systems. They concluded that the DPF was cracked. For this reason the garage placed a new DPF. The overall costs of this repair were about 7000 euro’s which the camperdealer is paying because we still have warranty on the camper.

During the repair process we regularly phoned the garage and discussed the progress. Thanks to the advice I got on this forum I could ask the right questions and discuss the solutions they planned !! Following the advice from theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread) I also asked them to install a clean copy of the Engine software V32, but this the garage did not consider necessary.

On Saturday I went for a long ride (360 km) on the highway and monitored the performance of the camper using MES. I used the Template 4 as suggested by theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread), I only replaced the odometer reading for a vehicle speed reading and added a fuel consumption reading. I also checked several times for any error codes but non showed up.

I attached the data for the last part of my test drive in which a regeneration of the DPF took place. During this part of the test drive, I increased the speed from 100 km/h (@2000 rpm) to 110 km/h, and further up to 120 km/h. Below you can see a graph with the temperature behaviour of the DPF during regeneration. Nearly independent of the speed, the temperature of the DPF is about 400 deg C during normal operation. During the regen one can see that the temperature goes up to more than 600 deg C to burn of the soot accumulated in the DPF.

The other graph shows the differantial pressure drop across the DPF before and after regen. The pressure drop goes up a little with increasing speed from 100 to 120 km/h, then it peaks at about 1700 seconds where the regen starts. After the regen at about 2000 seconds the pressure drop across the DPF is reduced from about 100-120 mbar down to about 30 mbar.

From this graph, I would conclude that the DPF seems to do is its job, it captures the soot and burns it off. Hopefully this will prevent the EGR cooler from getting blocked again.

Analyzing the data further, one can also see that the High and Low Pressure EGR valves actually change position, which was not the case before repair. The High Pressure valve changes most during low speed and the Low Pressure changes most during high speed (100-120km/h). Yet, it is not clear to me how these valves are actually controlled because checking with MES, I find that they seem to be disabled for position control but enabled for air quantity control.

QUESTION to the forum: could somebody explain how this air quantity control works ?

Another thing that bothers me a bit is the fuel consumption, I think it is on the high side. Our camper is a Pössl Roadcar 640 based on a Fiat Ducato 2.3, with 130 HP from 2018. It is 6.4 m long and weighs about 2900 kg. It uses about 8 liter/100km @ 90 km/h, which increase to 10 liters/100 km @ 100km/h, and 12.5l/100 km @ 110 km/h.

Question to the forum: what is your opinion about this fuel consumption, is it comparebly high or normal ?

A short note on the legal aspects of this repair.
I consulted a lawyer who told me we have a strong case against the camper dealer in case he would refuse to repair our camper properly and within a certain time limit. In the Netherlands, we have independent of any warranty given by the dealer, a year warranty by law for consumers that buy a product from a company. Apparantly such warranty is not provided when you buy from a private person. Luckily for us the camper dealer did not make any fuss about the repair and followed the advice of the garagist to replace nearly all parts of the exhaust system by new ones.
Regards Bert

 

[lycopersicum]

I get exactly the same fuel consumption figures with my 2013 Ducato, 2.3l 130hp, L2H2.

 

[deejays]

Update on the TWIN EGR system: our camper is running again !!

Finally after 4 weeks, last saturday we could pick up our camper from the garage. The repair on the exhaust system gave the garage quite some trouble. Initially they replaced, with new parts, the High and Low Pressure EGR valves, the MAP sensor, the throttle body, and the EGR cooler. They cleaned the inlet manifold and the DPF, yet there was still an error message. The DPF was sent to a company named Büchli that is specialized in overhauling exhaust systems. They concluded that the DPF was cracked. For this reason the garage placed a new DPF. The overall costs of this repair were about 7000 euro’s which the camperdealer is paying because we still have warranty on the camper.

During the repair process we regularly phoned the garage and discussed the progress. Thanks to the advice I got on this forum I could ask the right questions and discuss the solutions they planned !! Following the advice from theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread) I also asked them to install a clean copy of the Engine software V32, but this the garage did not consider necessary.

On Saturday I went for a long ride (360 km) on the highway and monitored the performance of the camper using MES. I used the Template 4 as suggested by theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread), I only replaced the odometer reading for a vehicle speed reading and added a fuel consumption reading. I also checked several times for any error codes but non showed up.

I attached the data for the last part of my test drive in which a regeneration of the DPF took place. During this part of the test drive, I increased the speed from 100 km/h (@2000 rpm) to 110 km/h, and further up to 120 km/h. Below you can see a graph with the temperature behaviour of the DPF during regeneration. Nearly independent of the speed, the temperature of the DPF is about 400 deg C during normal operation. During the regen one can see that the temperature goes up to more than 600 deg C to burn of the soot accumulated in the DPF.

View attachment 466147

The other graph shows the differantial pressure drop across the DPF before and after regen. The pressure drop goes up a little with increasing speed from 100 to 120 km/h, then it peaks at about 1700 seconds where the regen starts. After the regen at about 2000 seconds the pressure drop across the DPF is reduced from about 100-120 mbar down to about 30 mbar.

View attachment 466148

From this graph, I would conclude that the DPF seems to do is its job, it captures the soot and burns it off. Hopefully this will prevent the EGR cooler from getting blocked again.

Analyzing the data further, one can also see that the High and Low Pressure EGR valves actually change position, which was not the case before repair. The High Pressure valve changes most during low speed and the Low Pressure changes most during high speed (100-120km/h). Yet, it is not clear to me how these valves are actually controlled because checking with MES, I find that they seem to be disabled for position control but enabled for air quantity control.

View attachment 466149
View attachment 466150

QUESTION to the forum: could somebody explain how this air quantity control works ?

Another thing that bothers me a bit is the fuel consumption, I think it is on the high side. Our camper is a Pössl Roadcar 640 based on a Fiat Ducato 2.3, with 130 HP from 2018. It is 6.4 m long and weighs about 2900 kg. It uses about 8 liter/100km @ 90 km/h, which increase to 10 liters/100 km @ 100km/h, and 12.5l/100 km @ 110 km/h.

Question to the forum: what is your opinion about this fuel consumption, is it comparebly high or normal ?

A short note on the legal aspects of this repair.
I consulted a lawyer who told me we have a strong case against the camper dealer in case he would refuse to repair our camper properly and within a certain time limit. In the Netherlands, we have independent of any warranty given by the dealer, a year warranty by law for consumers that buy a product from a company. Apparantly such warranty is not provided when you buy from a private person. Luckily for us the camper dealer did not make any fuss about the repair and followed the advice of the garagist to replace nearly all parts of the exhaust system by new ones.
Regards Bert

Regarding your "disabled" label concerns in MES. I suggest you do not worry about monitoring those as they mean nothing for the Ducato. My Ducato shows exactly as yours and I have owned mine from new and service it myself. Remember that MES is not designed just for the Ducato and there can be some vagaries as a result. So long as you can see that the actual valve position tracks the target position for both valves you are good. Cheers, and a great outcome for you (Also - well done @theoneandonly )

 

[theoneandonly]

Update on the TWIN EGR system: our camper is running again !!

Finally after 4 weeks, last saturday we could pick up our camper from the garage. The repair on the exhaust system gave the garage quite some trouble. Initially they replaced, with new parts, the High and Low Pressure EGR valves, the MAP sensor, the throttle body, and the EGR cooler. They cleaned the inlet manifold and the DPF, yet there was still an error message. The DPF was sent to a company named Büchli that is specialized in overhauling exhaust systems. They concluded that the DPF was cracked. For this reason the garage placed a new DPF. The overall costs of this repair were about 7000 euro’s which the camperdealer is paying because we still have warranty on the camper.

During the repair process we regularly phoned the garage and discussed the progress. Thanks to the advice I got on this forum I could ask the right questions and discuss the solutions they planned !! Following the advice from theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread) I also asked them to install a clean copy of the Engine software V32, but this the garage did not consider necessary.

On Saturday I went for a long ride (360 km) on the highway and monitored the performance of the camper using MES. I used the Template 4 as suggested by theoneandonly (see earlier in this thread), I only replaced the odometer reading for a vehicle speed reading and added a fuel consumption reading. I also checked several times for any error codes but non showed up.

I attached the data for the last part of my test drive in which a regeneration of the DPF took place. During this part of the test drive, I increased the speed from 100 km/h (@2000 rpm) to 110 km/h, and further up to 120 km/h. Below you can see a graph with the temperature behaviour of the DPF during regeneration. Nearly independent of the speed, the temperature of the DPF is about 400 deg C during normal operation. During the regen one can see that the temperature goes up to more than 600 deg C to burn of the soot accumulated in the DPF.

View attachment 466147

The other graph shows the differantial pressure drop across the DPF before and after regen. The pressure drop goes up a little with increasing speed from 100 to 120 km/h, then it peaks at about 1700 seconds where the regen starts. After the regen at about 2000 seconds the pressure drop across the DPF is reduced from about 100-120 mbar down to about 30 mbar.

View attachment 466148

From this graph, I would conclude that the DPF seems to do is its job, it captures the soot and burns it off. Hopefully this will prevent the EGR cooler from getting blocked again.

Analyzing the data further, one can also see that the High and Low Pressure EGR valves actually change position, which was not the case before repair. The High Pressure valve changes most during low speed and the Low Pressure changes most during high speed (100-120km/h). Yet, it is not clear to me how these valves are actually controlled because checking with MES, I find that they seem to be disabled for position control but enabled for air quantity control.

View attachment 466149
View attachment 466150

QUESTION to the forum: could somebody explain how this air quantity control works ?

Another thing that bothers me a bit is the fuel consumption, I think it is on the high side. Our camper is a Pössl Roadcar 640 based on a Fiat Ducato 2.3, with 130 HP from 2018. It is 6.4 m long and weighs about 2900 kg. It uses about 8 liter/100km @ 90 km/h, which increase to 10 liters/100 km @ 100km/h, and 12.5l/100 km @ 110 km/h.

Question to the forum: what is your opinion about this fuel consumption, is it comparebly high or normal ?

A short note on the legal aspects of this repair.
I consulted a lawyer who told me we have a strong case against the camper dealer in case he would refuse to repair our camper properly and within a certain time limit. In the Netherlands, we have independent of any warranty given by the dealer, a year warranty by law for consumers that buy a product from a company. Apparantly such warranty is not provided when you buy from a private person. Luckily for us the camper dealer did not make any fuss about the repair and followed the advice of the garagist to replace nearly all parts of the exhaust system by new ones.
Regards Bert

How does a twin egr engine work

The following is a description of a twin egr engine edited from https://mechcontent.com/ and other sources It is not a detailed examination of the Fiat engine, if theres anything obviously wrong please advise. The internal combustion engine uses...

www.fiatforum.com

this is a compilation of my reading on the tinternet . You have allready observed what it says about the HPegr being more efficient at low speed and LPegr more efficient at high speeds your engine now complies with the theory.
Now to recent results the injector values Good

LPEGR working exactly as expected. Temperatures Good

A nice example of regeneration.

Regeneration temperature typicaly trying to control around 640C but with a peak of 740C

Now to 3 graph that concern me slightly. May just need running in.
The differntial sensor running grater than 100 at begginning. keep an eye on for improvement

Oxygen levels at long term lows. Ive not seen anything like this. Lots of O2 being used up possibly in combustion of soot. again something to continue a watch on.

This also is not correct in my eyes, too large a discrepancy betwween desired and actual boost.
Reason:
Any comments please
MAP sensor needs cleaning
new Turbosolenoid valve required
turbo activator sluggish
leakage in turbo line somewhere.

In MES there is Turbosolenoid valve test that would aid checking the activator rod. there is a guide for this.

Fuel consumption typical for a Motorhome.

 

[basbert]

A thank-you to lycopersicum and deejays for the comments on the fuel consumption and the disabled label, these are a re-assuring for a laymen like me. I also like to thank theoneandonly for the analysis of the MES data. I will certainly keep an eye on the measurement of the differential pressure across the DPF and of the Lambda oxygen concentrations. The last ones are indeed low compared to your data in the post Multiecuscan results 2.3 130 euro6 2017.

I wouold have a few questions for theoneandonly with regard to the turbo boost pressure which seems too low with respect to the desired boost pressure. In your comment you mentioned several possible reasons for the discrepancy which are:
-MAP sensor needs cleaning
-new Turbosolenoid valve required
-turbo activator sluggish
-leakage in turbo line somewhere.

With regard to cleaning the MAP sensor: the garagist said the MAP sensor is replaced with a new one. Could it be already dirty with soot ? I can not proporly check if it looks new because it so tucked away below the rubber tubing and the throttle body. All other parts the garagist mentioned that are replaced look shiny new.

Regarding the turbo solenoid, I tested it this afternoon following the guide in https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/turbo-solenoid-test.912/. Switching the ignition on (engine off) I could hear a sound coming from the solenoid at a frequency of about 1000 to 2000 Hz. Then with intervals of 1 minute I could hear a clicking sound coming from behind the motor, somewhere close to the LP EGR valve of which one can see a corner sticking out. In total I heard the clicking sound up to 5 times before switching the ignition off. Unfortunately my car is parked at the side of the street and there was too much traffic to go safely under the camper. So I could not watch the turbo actuator rod move that operates the waste gate. I try to borrow a wire camera to solve this.

In one of your posts (https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/where-is-my-boost-pressure-sensor-location.513386/)
there is a remark that “The turbo solenoid is regarded as a regular replacement required. The solenoid has a rubber diaphram and is analagous to rhe CV carb”. Would you have any idea in over what time frame on average it needs replacement ?

Above you mention that maybe the turbo activator is sluggish. What is actually the turbo activator and could I test it somehow ?

I also ran the motor in the hope that if there is a leak in the rubber tubing of the turbo line I could hear it, but that seems unlikely with the loud motor noises. I pulled at the reachable hose connections and found they were tightly and firm connected. Would you have any suggestions on how to check for leaks ?

Regards Bert

 

[theoneandonly]

. So I could not watch the turbo actuator rod move that operates the waste gate. I try to borrow a wire camera to solve this.

In one of your posts (https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/where-is-my-boost-pressure-sensor-location.513386/)
there is a remark that “The turbo solenoid is regarded as a regular replacement required. The solenoid has a rubber diaphram and is analagous to rhe CV carb”. Would you have any idea in over what time frame on average it needs replacement ?

Above you mention that maybe the turbo activator is sluggish. What is actually the turbo activator and could I test it somehow ?

I also ran the motor in the hope that if there is a leak in the rubber tubing of the turbo line I could hear it, but that seems unlikely with the loud motor noises. I pulled at the reachable hose connections and found they were tightly and firm connected. Would you have any suggestions on how to check for leaks ?

Regards Bert

I have read The turbo solenoid is regarded as needing a replacement every 28,000 miles. the turbo activator rod can be observed (from underneath) durring turbo solenoid test. Leak test push/ pull squeeze has you mention then next step would be a smoke tester . I have not used a smoke tester.