PM David Cameron said Britain had to combat its home-grown Islamic extremism in 2011

[Shadeyman]

"For many years now we have been aware of the threat we face from international terrorism," he said.
"That threat is still very much with us. And it is as serious today as it ever has been."
He said that going into 2011 the authorities were working "round the clock to foil plots that would do terrible harm to our people and our economy.
"We will defend our values and way of life and defeat those who threaten them.
"But we must ask ourselves as a country how we are allowing the radicalisation and poisoning of the minds of some young British Muslims who then contemplate and sometimes carry out acts of sickening barbarity.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...cId=CNG.f4fa510e3a42ad81ea91bfde88768880.1091

 

[jnoiles]

"But we must ask ourselves as a country how we are allowing the radicalisation and poisoning of the minds of some young British Muslims who then contemplate and sometimes carry out acts of sickening barbarity.

Huh? They - the people being radicalised - are allowing it to happen. Not 'we' as a society. I could allow myself to get radicalised. I choose not to, in much the same way I choose not to be a rapist, murderer or bank robber.

A portion of society will always be attracted to nutters spouting hate. Is the correct response to stifle their speech? I'm not sure it is.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you, but these are not normal circumstances.
The people that are being "radicalised" are acting like sponges and being brainwashed, but willingly so. My view, based on personal knowledge and from having contacts in Pakistan and contacts here with close connections to Pakistan and Afghanistan is that this radicalisation is as much a lifestyle choice as anything else. In other words these people (the ones that are blowing themselves up, not the higher ups in the organisation) are gullible idiots who see this as their chance to be a somebody instead of a nobody. In the same way that other terrorist causes in the past have been basically gangsterism and racketeering masquerading as politics.
The big difference with the Muslim radicals is that this is a global problem now, rather than a regional problem. This is not new. It has been building for decades.
When our laws were evolved over the years, nobody ever considered the concept of the suicide bomber becoming a widespread problem. If freedom of speech has to be curtailed to help stem the spread of extremism then so be it. We have to wake up. This is not a game of cricket we are involved in, it is a war, and in a war you have to make difficult changes, or you lose.

 

[jnoiles]

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you, but these are not normal circumstances.
The people that are being "radicalised" are acting like sponges and being brainwashed, but willingly so. My view, based on personal knowledge and from having contacts in Pakistan and contacts here with close connections to Pakistan and Afghanistan is that this radicalisation is as much a lifestyle choice as anything else. In other words these people (the ones that are blowing themselves up, not the higher ups in the organisation) are gullible idiots who see this as their chance to be a somebody instead of a nobody.

So is education the answer, do we need to reach vulnerable people with an alternative before they're radicalised? Or are we (well, ok, Cameron) suggesting that 2011 is the year where we need to go for the source, ie those preaching the hate? Or a combination of both. I'd be interested to know what he has in mind. Cameron doesn't seem to be giving us any indication of how he might be solving the problem this year. From the original article:

"But we must ask ourselves as a country how we are allowing the radicalisation and poisoning of the minds of some young British Muslims who then contemplate and sometimes carry out acts of sickening barbarity.

"And the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who detest this extremism must help us to find the answers together."

He sounds like he's saying 'Muslim's, clean up your house please'. I'm not sure that's a decisive enough answer in this case and rather misses the point. If you're a peaceable Muslim it logically follows that you're not hanging around the fringe nutters who are out to blow themselves up. I'd prefer it if he said something along the lines of 'we'll take the security services evidence, build a case, arrest these nutters and try them under law'. I'd be pleased to see that happen.

In the same way that other terrorist causes in the past have been basically gangsterism and racketeering masquerading as politics.

Politicians make the best crooks

The big difference with the Muslim radicals is that this is a global problem now, rather than a regional problem. This is not new. It has been building for decades.
When our laws were evolved over the years, nobody ever considered the concept of the suicide bomber becoming a widespread problem. If freedom of speech has to be curtailed to help stem the spread of extremism then so be it. We have to wake up. This is not a game of cricket we are involved in, it is a war, and in a war you have to make difficult changes, or you lose.

Wow, we're frighteningly close to agreeing on something here

I think we have laws in place to allow us to deal with this. I just get the feeling that no current politician wants to be the guy to put the boot in. Sending in the police to kick down the door of a mosque and arrest a radical preacher of hate would unleash a wave of violence and bad PR. Politicians can smell bad press a mile off and avoid it like the plague. And the first retaliatory strike would lead to the opposition accusing the govt of causing this mess.

And I do think if we tried this approach, there would be fallout. You wouldn't pull it off without people dying in retaliatory strikes.

Coming back to your point about it being a war, do we as a society, have the stomach for a protracted war, on our home turf, against a vicious minority who would interpret our actions as a direct challenge and respond with violence - in the tube, in the high street, on a bus and everywhere else we take for granted is safe?

 

[pooroldcodger]

As you know by now, I don't know how to cut and paste quotes and then reply underneath them, so I will try to give my two penny worth below. Pardon my incompetence!!
This from Cameron is a typical politician's statement - full of empty rhetoric, and devoid of practical action. Or less politely, all p*ss and wind.
We can't wait for so-called moderate muslims to do something, because they won't. Muslims can be as apathetic as any other religion, and will be prepared to stand back and let the radicals fight their cause. Only if there is a real backlash that affects the everyday muslim going about his lawful business will the moderate muslim voice make itself heard. Otherwise they have no incentive to risk being called a bad muslim by the loudmouths.
"Politicians make the best crooks" . Well we all know that in Westminster they are pretty goods at maximising the benefits of a spectacularly lenient expenses and allowances system, but what I had in mind here was more along the Gerry Adams / Martin McGuinness/ Bin Laden school of thought. I.E we will become big shot gangsters / terrorists (take your pick) by hijacking and exploiting religious fears and beliefs for our own ends and convincing a lot of people that they did it all in a selfless manner.
Final point, our politicians don't have the stomach for this fight, hence they have followed the appeasement route so far, and when did that ever work?
The biggest disaster that could befall our country is for the muslims to keep gaining more and more ground, swelling their numbers through their birth rate, politicans standing back and wringing their hands, doing not much, and suddenly the far right comes in with a bang and takes the law in to its own hands and we could have another Northern Ireland situation, only instead of just involving a few square miles and a few hundred thousand people, this would be huge, and would split communities, wreck the economy and frighten off inward investment.
This is why Cameron needs to be strong and gain some respect by actions not words. You only stop a bully by standing up to him, not by appeasing him.