Technical Panda Cross 2010 Fuse Box

[hairybiker84]

I am trying to confirm connections to the main under bonnet fuse box but have been unable to find a match on the elearn site for the wires actually installed any ideas?
Many thanks in advance.

 

[koalar]

Elearn doesn't have a wiring diagram just for the under bonnet fuse box

Everything is in different section

Aircon
Lights
Horn
Dualogic
ABS
Fans
And so on

If we knew what part isn't working it would make finding the correct diagrams much simpler

 

[hairybiker84]

There has been an intermittent starting issue since we bought the car over a year ago. All the earth points have been cleaned, usual multipole connectors cleaned but it has always shown a low (in my opinion) voltage on the diagnostics. I have taken the fuse box apart and found oxidation between the power feed busses and between the 'stud' that holds it together. Upon reassembly I now have the eld light on the dash illuminated and warnings about ABS, etc so obviously have a wire in the wrong place. My annotations must have been incorrect somewhere!
The colour codes on some of the wires do not correspond to those shown on the Elearn wiring diagrams - the engine fuse/junction box diagrams have (I think) 19 variations alone!

 

[koalar]

Not starting or not cranking

What voltage is showing low

 

[hairybiker84]

Sometimes it will take 6 attempts to start, always cranks - has had a new battery in the winter as the other was a bit slow cranking.
ECU voltage was vey low 12's without anything running, 11.7 -8 dropping when glow plugs and pump running. Not seen it in the 10's but 11.1-2 sometimes. Have had ELD disconnect and some other related faults come in on occasions but they go once started/restarted.
Once I got the fuse board back together it started straight away but as I say, now got ELD/abs faults.

 

[koalar]

Sometimes it will take 6 attempts to start, always cranks - has had a new battery in the winter as the other was a bit slow cranking.
ECU voltage was vey low 12's without anything running, 11.7 -8 dropping when glow plugs and pump running. Not seen it in the 10's but 11.1-2 sometimes. Have had ELD disconnect and some other related faults come in on occasions but they go once started/restarted.
Once I got the fuse board back together it started straight away but as I say, now got ELD/abs faults.

Graph the voltage

But it sounds right

Reading a bit lower than it real is normal, you can calibrate the voltage in some software

Should drop to around 8v for a few milliseconds at the start of cranking then bounce back to around 10v when the starter starts spinning


Here's mine although petrol you can see the massive drop old battery as it sees a short before the starter starts spinning

As long as it stays above 6.5V the ECU is happy, although over 8V should be expected from a good battery


I'd start by logging the RPM and pressure while it's not starting

Should be minimum of 200 rpm and the fuel pressure should be 300 bar


I guess we still have to find the new introduced fault

Not sure how having a circuit diagram will help, one does not exist of the complete fuse box or how anything can get in the wrong place

 

[hairybiker84]

Most of the cables have been removed from the fuse box and reassembled, obviously got something annotated incorrectly. I'll just have to trace some cables to see what's amiss. Definitely would have been high resistance within areas of the fuse box.
Pressures have been fine whenever I've logged it, but it's always started fine when I have. I suspect either leads to ECU (poorly supported and someone has been at them previously), fuse box (evidence of water ingress) or maybe ECU. If there was anything wrong with fuel pump or injectors I would expect it to do it all the time?

 

[koalar]

I don't see how we can move forward easily

Unless you connect to the body computer and read the actual code, it might point to where the fault lies

Or you buy an identical fuse box and see where the wires should go

I doubt anyone has a post 2009 1.3 cross of the same specifications that are willing to dismantle to photo

Maybe @irc has one in their spares pile, a bit of a long shot

 

[irc]

Sadly not for a Cross.
The only 1.3MJ fusebox I've got is for a base model 05 2WD non-aircon with ABS and pretty much nothing else. Doubt it'll be any help at all.
Did see someone breaking a Cross (think it was a 10 plate) on eBay a few months ago, but didn't bookmark it. If I can find a link I will post it.

EDIT: can't find a link or any of the parts that were listed back then. Sorry.

 

[hairybiker84]

Sorted. Double checked everything against the wiring diagrams most of it checked out except for about 15 wires that had different colours. That just meant tracing where they went (or were supposed to go). 2 or them were reversed so pulled the connectors out again and swapped them.
Now we'll see whether the starting issue is any better.

 

[DaveMcT]

Try starting every time with jump leads to a back up battery. If your battery is weak there should be instant improvement. Less boosting effect if you still have earth resistance in your system. A single test os probably not enough. Do it on every cold start for a few days.

Have you checked your alternator for corrosion? I have had two with cracked casing due to rust expanding the laminated stator core. They both charged though one was getting gradually weaker.

By the way, my Multijet glow plugs cause the near side headlight to run dim. I plan to run a dedicated supply direct to that relay box. Probably with a hefty relay. Watch me fail to do it before the winter weather returns.

 

[hairybiker84]

Try starting every time with jump leads to a back up battery. If your battery is weak there should be instant improvement. Less boosting effect if you still have earth resistance in your system. A single test os probably not enough. Do it on every cold start for a few days.

Have you checked your alternator for corrosion? I have had two with cracked casing due to rust expanding the laminated stator core. They both charged though one was getting gradually weaker.

By the way, my Multijet glow plugs cause the near side headlight to run dim. I plan to run a dedicated supply direct to that relay box. Probably with a hefty relay. Watch me fail to do it before the winter weather returns.

Thanks for that, the battery is new so no issues there. Alternator corrosion, I haven't actually checked but have had an occasional alternator fault code.
I'm going to run an additional earth to the engine to try and minimise earth resistance, just need to get one ordered up!
Mechanic friend suggested getting the ECU sent off for testing, he has had a few with issues due to water ingress via the top mounted connectors - they don't appear to be the best sealed so stupid design to mount the ecu as it has been.

 

[koalar]

The ECU is designed to run at very low voltage

The body computer falls over first at 6.5V at which point the clock will reset and the CODE can not be sent

 

[hairybiker84]

The ECU is designed to run at very low voltage

The body computer falls over first at 6.5V at which point the clock will reset and the CODE can not be sent

What about water ingress though?

 

[koalar]

What about water ingress though?

That's something different, I guess it's still intermittently failing to start

You've been chasing low voltage at the ECU

Which in my opinion has been red herring

Water ingress in the ECU is extremely rare, as in the last 10 years I never come across one, I have on the ABS module and body computer but not the ECU

Intermittent starting on a diesel is very common, with many different cause

I'd start by posting a graph as advised in post 6

We would know if it's turning fast enough, if the pressure was enough, and if the pressure ramp up is fast enough

without feedback we can't move forwards and can only make wild guesses which may be right or wrong

 

[hairybiker84]

That's something different, I guess it's still intermittently failing to start

You've been chasing low voltage at the ECU

Which in my opinion has been red herring

Water ingress in the ECU is extremely rare, as in the last 10 years I never come across one, I have on the ABS module and body computer but not the ECU

Intermittent starting on a diesel is very common, with many different cause

I'd start by posting a graph as advised in post 6

We would know if it's turning fast enough, if the pressure was enough, and if the pressure ramp up is fast enough

without feedback we can't move forwards and can only make wild guesses which may be right or wrong

Now there is the problem, catching it when it doesn't start! It's been fine since doing the fuse box but I'd put money on it doing it again!
Getting fed up with the thing, so far it has completely failed to turn over (my wife was away with the car). Taking out and checking some fuses seemed to fix that but it did it again and a mechanic cleaned the battery terminals (even though it was a new battery) which seemed to fix the not turning over issue.
Had a MAF sensor throw a fault and upon inspection was 'Hella' made in China - it's been replaced with a Bosch one ( no doubt made in China too). Car seemed to run much better, so good in fact that it went into limp mode with 'intake system' fault- turns out wastegate was seized. All fine until I got a MAF sensor fault but that's been reset and not come back.
I can get a graph from diagnostics (I think), what would you like to see?
Voltage, RPM, Fuel Pressure- anything else?

 

[koalar]

Now there is the problem, catching it when it doesn't start! It's been fine since doing the fuse box but I'd put money on it doing it again!
Getting fed up with the thing, so far it has completely failed to turn over (my wife was away with the car). Taking out and checking some fuses seemed to fix that but it did it again and a mechanic cleaned the battery terminals (even though it was a new battery) which seemed to fix the not turning over issue.
Had a MAF sensor throw a fault and upon inspection was 'Hella' made in China - it's been replaced with a Bosch one ( no doubt made in China too). Car seemed to run much better, so good in fact that it went into limp mode with 'intake system' fault- turns out wastegate was seized. All fine until I got a MAF sensor fault but that's been reset and not come back.
I can get a graph from diagnostics (I think), what would you like to see?
Voltage, RPM, Fuel Pressure- anything else?

Yes, that will eliminate or confirm some things so we can fix or move on

It's best to not log too much in one go otherwise each sample get too far apart


I have a Delphi multiplexer with a flight recorder that writes everything to a SD card, useful for intermittent faults that don't flag any error code

You can do the same with an elm327 and a smart phone, but you will have to remember to start recording before trying to crank, so a bit more hassle but not too much

 

[hairybiker84]

Yes, that will eliminate or confirm some things so we can fix or move on

It's best to not log too much in one go otherwise each sample get too far apart


I have a Delphi multiplexer with a flight recorder that writes everything to a SD card, useful for intermittent faults that don't flag any error code

You can do the same with an elm327 and a smart phone, but you will have to remember to start recording before trying to crank, so a bit more hassle but not too much

Good morning, ran a test with the Icarsoft I have but upon viewing the 'print' it is not a graph, just a series of readings with no timeframe so not a lot of use. I have a bluetooth OBD reader that I could connect to my phone, any recommendations of app that would give a desired graph?
Many thanks.

 

[koalar]

Both work with most china elm327

 

[hairybiker84]

View attachment 469290View attachment 469291


Both work with most china elm327

Here's a screenshot of a Torque recording of startup earlier. Doesn't really show much as car started pretty much straight away.