Technical Panda 4x4 100hp Swap - Should ESP/ASR be swapped too?

[GerarGD]

Good morning everyone! Long time reader, first time poster, I have unexpectedly come across a written off 2009 100hp with ESP.

This week we'll start the surgery on my trustworthy 2007 1.2 petrol 4x4 with Viscous Coupling, and few days ago I noticed the "ASR off" button in the dashboard of the 100hp.

Understandably, ESP together with VC are not gonna work together properly since ESP will prevent the wheel spin (that sems to be one of the reasons why Fiat moved to the ELD in later models), but since this is a tinkering operation anyway, I was wondering if something could be hacked in this regard...

Is there any way to keep the ESP/ASR from the 100hp, which I think is of high value for normal driving safety, while retaining the 4x4 capability when needed?

Would turning off the ASR in the dash still allow wheel spin and therefore coupling of the rear wheels?

Should I hack a way to make an actual "ESP off" button for when I actually need the 4x4 to work?

Or should I go for the mechanical coupler from Prometeo Meccanica that our friend Pedro sports, so I can manually engage the 4x4?

For context, the car is in Estonia, and therefore in winter snow is a thing. While in Summer I might need the 4x4 capabilities just couple of times, in winter it can be a weekly need.

Thank you very much in advance for your time and help! I do know the easiest thing is just not to swap the ABD with ESP/ASR, but well, I kinda like that everyday safety measure if there is a way to include it in the surgery.

Looking forward to reading your opinions.

Cheers and have a lovely start to the week!

 

[svennelainen]

Your visco is probably bad anyway, so do it!
Jokes aside, the ESP/ASR features use wheel sensors and stuff that your 07 Panda doesn't have. Everything can be done but it is not going to be simple and I wouldn't spend my time on such project.

I'm not sure what you mean with using a Prometeo coupler and how that would solve the ESP problems. If we're talking about the Prometeo coupler only, I replaced my coupler with one this summer and I love it. You will not get disappointed at all, very nice product! I did some minor changes to my cable routing and I'm happy to share that if you buy one!

 

[epifant]

A small digresson, but hopefully not completely off topic - @svennelainen; how is fuel consumption with the Prometeo coupler disengaged? I guess it's not equal to a FWD Panda as there is still some losses due to all the rotating mass of rear driveshafts etc, but noticeably higher mpg would be very nice. As for now, my 4x4 uses almost as much fuel as my Coupé 20VT, wich feels a bit silly.

 

[svennelainen]

A small digresson, but hopefully not completely off topic - @svennelainen; how is fuel consumption with the Prometeo coupler disengaged? I guess it's not equal to a FWD Panda as there is still some losses due to all the rotating mass of rear driveshafts etc, but noticeably higher mpg would be very nice. As for now, my 4x4 uses almost as much fuel as my Coupé 20VT, wich feels a bit silly.

It is considerably lower!
Frankly if the visco is burnt the rear wheels will be more engaged than needed and cause resistance. It is a common problem with bad viscos of any car brand. Compared to the consumption the car _should_ have with a fresh visco it is still less. Compared to the worn out visco I replaced, the consumption dropped like a ball figure 25 %

 

[GerarGD]

Your visco is probably bad anyway, so do it!
Jokes aside, the ESP/ASR features use wheel sensors and stuff that your 07 Panda doesn't have. Everything can be done but it is not going to be simple and I wouldn't spend my time on such project.

I'm not sure what you mean with using a Prometeo coupler and how that would solve the ESP problems. If we're talking about the Prometeo coupler only, I replaced my coupler with one this summer and I love it. You will not get disappointed at all, very nice product! I did some minor changes to my cable routing and I'm happy to share that if you buy one!

Thank you @svennelainen for the insights!

So, jumping also on @epifant's topic, those fuel savings make me think like the prometeo coupler is a good deal and I should just go for it and forget about the other electronics from the 100hp...

Now, how's the user experience with it, the need of "turning 4x4 on and off", like in the older Pandas?

Do you need to be stopped to engage it? Then, with the 4x4 engaged, do you need to drive at a low speed, or can you just have it on all times as longs as you are not driving on tarmac? Asking mostly for winter usage on snow, when sometimes there is snow, then a clean road, then snow again...

And of course, last but not least, how much did it cost you shipped? Can't find a price on their website, but I've heard that the piece is around 500€, plus I guess shipping. Is it so?

Thanks in advance for your time and help,

Cheers!

 

[svennelainen]

It can be engaged while driving but slow, actually it is better to engage while moving. I think the manual says up to 17 km/h.
The coupler can be engaged while driving in higher speed, no problem as long as it is not raw tarmac I would say. Snow will not be a problem at all. But I've got one to have full contact karate when I'm off road or raw forest road driving.
There are plenty of videos at Youtube with it in use. You can get quite a good input from there.
500 is not enough, I think I paid like 780 with shipping.

 

[GerarGD]

Thank you @svennelainen for the insights! I'll reach out to Prometeo and ask about it.

I think I will try the 100hp with the VC (just for fun) this winter, and potentially put the mechanic afterwards.

Works starting for the swap very soon!

 

[svennelainen]

If you can't make a tight U-turn without the back wheel chewing, your VC is shut. If that's the case you should find a replacement.
I still have my VC and I plan to cut it open and renovate it somewhere winter time. Let's see how that goes.

 

[GerarGD]

If you can't make a tight U-turn without the back wheel chewing, your VC is shut. If that's the case you should find a replacement.
I still have my VC and I plan to cut it open and renovate it somewhere winter time. Let's see how that goes.

Thanks for the tip! For now I can still make tight U-turns without any unexpected behaviour, but this car is from 2006 (and I'm like the 4th owner) so that VC has definitely seen better days.

As part of the engine swap we are also checking if anything else needs servicing and try to grab as many things as possible from the donor 100hp, which comes from the South and didn't suffer from rust issues. The rear subframe is special for the 4x4, so there we will need maybe to do some sandblasting and powder coating.

I think having the Prometeo coupler can be also very fun in winter for some slow-motion drifting. At the moment it is needed to force the wheelspin to engage the back wheels and that means understeer for some seconds. First world problems, anyway.

I'll make a second post about the 100hp conversion, since some people is interested.

Cheers and thank you for your comments so far!

 

[koalar]

If you change the ABS system you will loose the deceleration anti-slip system MSR that has been specifically tuned for the 4x4 viscous coupling preventing it from locking the rear end under heavy engine braking

 

[GerarGD]

If you change the ABS system you will loose the deceleration anti-slip system MSR that has been specifically tuned for the 4x4 viscous coupling preventing it from locking the rear end under heavy engine braking

Very true indeed, thanks!

 

[koalar]

If you can't make a tight U-turn without the back wheel chewing, your VC is shut. If that's the case you should find a replacement.
I still have my VC and I plan to cut it open and renovate it somewhere winter time. Let's see how that goes.

This seems an easier way

But haven't tried myself

 

[pearce_jj]

The Suzuki Swift 4x4 is viscous coupling based and has ESP, so it can work.

 

[GerarGD]

The Suzuki Swift 4x4 is viscous coupling based and has ESP, so it can work.

That's valuable knowledge, thanks for sharing!

I'm kinda sure we could make it work somehow, but after doing some research, getting answers from this tread, and speaking wiht the "surgeon" that will do the 100hp swap... We kinda concluded that is better just to swap the enegine and whatever electronics needed for the recipient to accept the transplant, instead of getting ourselves into trouble with the ESP swap...

Open for the future now are either getting a Prometeo mechanical coupler (and still no ESP) or, if I come across a newer 169 4x4 with ELD, maybe swap the rear differential + ABS/ESP module.

 

[koalar]

Fist off

I don't know

Both systems MSR and ESP use the same lateral sensor under the seats on the central support, MSR is a subset of ESP, there must be a reason why Fiat chosen to only half implement it, the difference is only one sensor and the software on the ABS module

My gut feeling is the lateral sensor, ABS module, ECU, throttle body, all talking to each other stands a better chance if they are all from the same car

The ABS originally on the car will still send the CANBUS signal to the ECU, but whether the 100HP ECU can interpret this is unknown

The throttle body is wire differently on the 4x4
The throttle body is unique to the 4x4 and dualogic

The slew sensor under the other seat is missing on the 4x4, I have no idea if the wiring is present, if it is there's a chance adding ESP is plug and play after swapping the ABS module

 

[GerarGD]

Fist off

I don't know

Both systems MSR and ESP use the same lateral sensor under the seats on the central support, MSR is a subset of ESP, there must be a reason why Fiat chosen to only half implement it, the difference is only one sensor and the software on the ABS module

My gut feeling is the lateral sensor, ABS module, ECU, throttle body, all talking to each other stands a better chance if they are all from the same car

The ABS originally on the car will still send the CANBUS signal to the ECU, but whether the 100HP ECU can interpret this is unknown

The throttle body is wire differently on the 4x4
The throttle body is unique to the 4x4 and dualogic

The slew sensor under the other seat is missing on the 4x4, I have no idea if the wiring is present, if it is there's a chance adding ESP is plug and play after swapping the ABS module

I've been checking posts this morning in the UK Panda 4x4 FB group, and I've read, from previous questions on the matter about the 100hp swap:

"You'll need 100hp loom, body ecu and engine ecu plus keys to match. I swapped ABS pump as well heard it has a different plug. You’ll find 5 wires on the drivers side running back to the abs sensor. 3 are for a yaw sensor that’s under the pass seat. You don’t need the yaw sensor for it to run. Fuel lines and vacuum lines different so fab or pinch off the 100hp. I used a 1.4 clutch and seems fine."

I suspect the yaw sensor is the trigger for the ESP, "feeling" that the car is going sideways which, in conjunction with wheelspin, ends up applying ABS in a certain wheel or wheels to correct the trajectory.

So, turns out the "swap whatever electronics are needed for the recipient to accept the transplant" includes indeed the ABS and the ECU... So no matter what, the swap will have ESP/ASR from the 100hp, but lose the MSR from the 4x4 ABS it seems?

I have the feeling that we will need to play a little with the Fiat OBDII tool, and do some mix and match... But I guess we will only know for sure when we are in the middle of the surgery.

We'll see how the mix of 100hp and 4x4 systems works. Will report about the findings!