Technical Panda 1.1 mk2 engine rattle when cold.

[The Panda Nut]

Good morning, not a good video, think she has stage fright ! . Couple of taps seems to be less than before? Has been much louder! , and lasted longer? . Many thanks for your advice, I understand it's difficult just from a recording.
Will take off the cover, and check/photo any damage. Would I be right in thinking a cam and all the follower should be changed if necessary or new head kind of repair? Many views on this..
I take it's safe to drive at the moment as long as it doesn't get worse? Again very grateful for everybody's input!

Try a different brand of oil. It makes a difference

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Try a different brand of oil. It makes a difference

Worth a try short term. But there's a problem that's going to have to be addressed here.

 

[Rowley h]

Agreed. deffo a problem, any suggestions for oil?
Moto bitz oil as per their book.

 

[The Panda Nut]

That doesn't sound like the typical startup tappet noise I've heard on these engines. I'm reluctant to take a guess at what it might be without being able to listen properly to it "in the flesh" but, I'm sorry to say, I don't like the sound of it very much. Listening in the oil filler isn't very helpful, I think the mic is struggling with it. Because it's an easy thing to do I'd be tempted to take the cam cover off and closely inspect the cam lobes for scoring/damage and also the cam followers. It's always difficult to be sure based on a recorded sound like this. Doesn't sound like big ends but it definitely doesn't sound "right". Could it be piston slap? Probably not? My money's on something to do with cam and or followers. Do let us know when you find out please.

Edit. It's about the right frequency to be just one cam follower involved, don't you think folks? I can also hear the typical "worn bearing noise" in the background which many of us have mentioned before - unlikely to be related to the tapping.

I agree. It doesnt sound badly wrong, maybe just getting old like me. Monitor closely or as you say do a little light investgation.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Agreed. deffo a problem, any suggestions for oil?
Moto bitz oil as per their book.

I'm sure that oil will be absolutely fine. It's my preferred viscosity range (5W-40) for these engines and it's a good late spec API SN or ACEA C3 - take your pick. The Fiat standard it's tested to is slightly different to the one recommended for our engines, but probably exceeds it I'd guess? Wouldn't worry me in the slightest. What might be of interest is it meets the VW spec for the PD diesel engines which have a known camshaft wear problem - their lobes are quite narrow so subject to high point loading. If you use the wrong oil in them they wear the cams very quickly. - So I think this would be a very good choice, albeit it's a brand I've never used. Ah, a quick google turned up this: https://technolubeuae.com/

 

[Rowley h]

Sorry I forgot to say, this is the oil in the car at the moment.

 

[Rowley h]

Hello all. Here are pics of the cover off, cleaned out the rocker cover till everything ran clear. I could see some small scrapes on couple of lobes, and the shims seem loose, but I'm not familiar with this type of engine, only crossflow lump many many years ago lol. Engine still noisy till fully warm, not as loud/bad as before? Hope the pics help, totally understand it's not the same as in the flesh. Deffo feels like overhaul needed.
Thanks and have a great day!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hello all. Here are pics of the cover off, cleaned out the rocker cover till everything ran clear. I could see some small scrapes on couple of lobes, and the shims seem loose, but I'm not familiar with this type of engine, only crossflow lump many many years ago lol. Engine still noisy till fully warm, not as loud/bad as before? Hope the pics help, totally understand it's not the same as in the flesh. Deffo feels like overhaul needed.
Thanks and have a great day!

Ah well, that's a pity, nothing really jumping out at me there.

Mrs J has just gone out in Becky and, as she always parks nose in to our building, I always stand in the road behind her to be sure no traffic is coming round the bend as she reverses out. I was able to listen carefully to Becky as she started up and all of the tappets rattled lightly for about 3 or 4 seconds at the most before settling down to her usual pretty quiet tickover. If it was an oil supply problem I'd expect to hear exactly that and that it would go shortly after the oil warning light extinguished (when the oil reached the top end of the engine). So, not much help really, but I don't think it's what Becky does. I notice the sealing O rings all seem to be present and correct too. By the way, the front drilling on the cam cover goes nowhere as the engine doesn't need a VVT oil feed - which is why it looks a bit "gungy" because there's no oil traveling through it.

Back to square one I'm afraid. Sorry I haven't had any other ideas yet, but I'll get back on here if anything occurs to me. Have you tried the followers for slackness in their guides? Of course you'll need to have the cam lobe pointing up, away from the follower, to be able to do that. was just wondering if one, or more, was "sloppy" in the head?

 

[Rowley h]

Ah well, that's a pity, nothing really jumping out at me there.

Mrs J has just gone out in Becky and, as she always parks nose in to our building, I always stand in the road behind her to be sure no traffic is coming round the bend as she reverses out. I was able to listen carefully to Becky as she started up and all of the tappets rattled lightly for about 3 or 4 seconds at the most before settling down to her usual pretty quiet tickover. If it was an oil supply problem I'd expect to hear exactly that and that it would go shortly after the oil warning light extinguished (when the oil reached the top end of the engine). So, not much help really, but I don't think it's what Becky does. I notice the sealing O rings all seem to be present and correct too. By the way, the front drilling on the cam cover goes nowhere as the engine doesn't need a VVT oil feed - which is why it looks a bit "gungy" because there's no oil traveling through it.

Back to square one I'm afraid. Sorry I haven't had any other ideas yet, but I'll get back on here if anything occurs to me. Have you tried the followers for slackness in their guides? Of course you'll need to have the cam lobe pointing up, away from the follower, to be able to do that. was just wondering if one, or more, was "sloppy" in the head?

Thanks again and I will keep an eye on it!
When I have time I will take her apart and turn the crank to measure and test gaps etc, anything interesting I'll post. Cheers

 

[Rowley h]

Good morning! Taken the gap measurements according to the book, also felt for play with the buckets, best I could! One maybe two seem to have more play in them, difficult to tell with the oil? I also have no experience with this type of setup. But I guess removal of the cam to check the followers is next.
When I find the culprit I will post , have a great day!

 

[rmjbn1]

Following this with interest, and I have an idle question...

I've seen reference on here to routine maintenance on the 8V FIRE involving regular checking of valve clearances and adjusting with shims.

Is this something that would be routinely carried out, please? For example as part of main dealer service? Or should be done?

Rocker cover on mine hasn't been removed for many years. There's the slight rattle on start up, but quietens down quickly, as Jock describes.

 

[Rowley h]

Hi. The manual says every 24.000 miles, they should be checked, not a difficult job. The followers are more difficult to diagnose without taking them out , probably new ones at this point? As Jock mentioned check for sloppy, but how sloppy should they be lol.
Slight rattle only when cold ? Mines intermittent but lasts around a minute.
How old is your oil? Made no difference for but narrows it down.

 

[rmjbn1]

Thanks

Slight rattle only when cold ? Mines intermittent but lasts around a minute.

Yes, only when cold.

How old is your oil? Made no difference for but narrows it down.

Oil is one year old, just coming up to its yearly change, my annual mileage is around 5,000 mostly rural. I haven't noticed fresh oil makes any difference to the start-up tappet rattle on mine

 

[Rowley h]

How long have you had your rattle? Maybe when you get a service you can get it checked for piece of mind? I did read that there are two types of oil can be used, 5w 40 and 10w 40. Probably little difference between them, I may try different oil to see if it makes any difference . Waiting till after the MOT before deciding on replacing engine parts! seems real easy to work on, nice little project..

 

[The Panda Nut]

Aye, think I'd have got away with that too if it was my daughter. I don't think either she or her husband ever open their bonnets. She gets away with it because she does so few miles in their wee Skoda Citigo and hubby drives an electric Enyaq - so no point in opening his bonnet anyway!

This one has a unique driving style. Fast does not get near it. With the TA and its high crank case pressure this would have been a disaster. It spprays oil everywhere even ticking over.

 

[rmjbn1]

How long have you had your rattle? Maybe when you get a service you can get it checked for piece of mind?

It's had the rattle since I got the car 8 years ago. I've never worried about it and it hasn't got any worse over the years.
I do my own servicing but I haven't felt the urge to remove the rocker cover yet.
So I was idly wondering if I should and wave a feeler guage around in there at some point.
But the old girl seems fairly happy so I might not bother if it's not strictly necessary

I did read that there are two types of oil can be used, 5w 40 and 10w 40.

My 2004 1.2 specifies 10w40. I've been considering Jock's suggestion of 5w40 as helping the cold oil circulate more quickly, but it won't be this year for me as I still have a load of 10w40 left to use first.

Fingers crossed you can get yours to quieten down soon without too much drastic surgery

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's had the rattle since I got the car 8 years ago. I've never worried about it and it hasn't got any worse over the years.
I do my own servicing but I haven't felt the urge to remove the rocker cover yet.
So I was idly wondering if I should and wave a feeler guage around in there at some point.
But the old girl seems fairly happy so I might not bother if it's not strictly necessary

Becky rattles for a few seconds on a cold start - first start after being idle for a couple of days or more. I'm absolutely sure it's oil drain back as she hardly does it at all if run every day. Once fully up to temperature, so say after 5 miles or so, if you listen very very carefully you can just hear one tappet "ticking" softly in the background. I won't be doing anything about it although when she gets her next cam belt, which will be this year if she doesn't fail MOT on something terminal, I will be removing the cam cover because last time I did the cam belt, around 5 years ago, I removed the cam cover to check the cam timing with the locking tools but the cover gasket I bought didn't include the "O" rings which seal the oil holes to the cam journals and I believe they are likely the originals from 2010. I want to replace them as she may be sucking air when dormant if they have hardened. I'll take a close look at the followers and cam lobes and if all is Ok then I'll be leaving well alone. I suspect the wee follower click you often hear older ones making could be due to a little wear in the follower bores allowing the followers to just "slop about" a tiny amount.

My 2004 1.2 specifies 10w40. I've been considering Jock's suggestion of 5w40 as helping the cold oil circulate more quickly, but it won't be this year for me as I still have a load of 10w40 left to use first.

Becky is due a service right now and I'm going to do it before the bad winter weather sets in. I'll be buying my parts from my usual supplier and this time it'll be all NAPA branded stock as he's now been completely subsumed by this organisation. I've used some Napa branded stuff from him over the last few years as he's run his old stocks down and it seems to be good quality however I've still been buying my favoured Fuchs oil bought from Opie or wherever. He's been on at me to start using his Napa branded oil for some time (I'm pretty sure it's made by Exol but so far haven't managed to get any definite proof) So this time I'm going to try his Napa branded 5W-40. Interestingly Napa market two 5W-40 oils 5w-40 Premium and 5w-40 LS. The difference is the Premium oil is an older A3/B4 (API SN/CF) spec which means it's a mid SAPS oil (Sulphur ash etc) so is a bit "dirtier" for things like catalytic converters etc. Which is a pity because it's slightly better at protecting mechanical moving parts. The 5w-40 LS is a C3 (API SN/CF) which means it's low SAPS and complies with FIAT's actual spec for our engines - see here: https://www.tayna.co.uk/engine-oil/...yS34TvRkEbiaezjTI1qB-rSXjHhwp9VBoCbLUQAvD_BwE So that's the oil I'll be using this time. Big adventure, I've used nothing but Fuchs for many years now.

Going to be interesting to see if it affects the cold start rattle in any way.

 

[Rowley h]

It's had the rattle since I got the car 8 years ago. I've never worried about it and it hasn't got any worse over the years.
I do my own servicing but I haven't felt the urge to remove the rocker cover yet.
So I was idly wondering if I should and wave a feeler guage around in there at some point.
But the old girl seems fairly happy so I might not bother if it's not strictly necessary

My 2004 1.2 specifies 10w40. I've been considering Jock's suggestion of 5w40 as helping the cold oil circulate more quickly, but it won't be this year for me as I still have a load of 10w40 left to use first.

Fingers crossed you can get yours to quieten down soon without too much drastic surgery

I also think 5w 40 oil would be more helpful especially when cold, I've tried the other way and the tick more more prominent! If you want to check the tolerances it would not do any harm and besides good to practice and peace of mind I guess. However and I think in my case, it may be a little more than just changing the followers, as Jock points out the bore may be enlarged.
Their is a Lucus heavy oil additive, which has been recommended to me, supposed to help prevent dry start, but at nearly 20£ and added at oil change.

 

[Greasytrucker]

I also think 5w 40 oil would be more helpful especially when cold, I've tried the other way and the tick more more prominent! If you want to check the tolerances it would not do any harm and besides good to practice and peace of mind I guess. However and I think in my case, it may be a little more than just changing the followers, as Jock points out the bore may be enlarged.
Their is a Lucus heavy oil additive, which has been recommended to me, supposed to help prevent dry start, but at nearly 20£ and added at oil change.

The Lucas oil stabiliser is very good stuff, bit expensive but always prelonged the life of stuff that should have died for me

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well, been a few weeks since the oil change and The new NAPA oil seems to be fine. By the way, it's "developed by Valvoline" - says so on the tin. As far as the duration of the slight tapping noise on start up? Very difficult to say it's any different to the Fuchs. If I'm really splitting hairs I think it maybe taps for just a split second longer? but I wouldn't stake my life on it. Certainly much better than another big name product which I think Panda Nut and I have mentioned in the past? Doesn't tap on a cold start after just one night standing, just like the Fuchs but does tap, just for a couple of seconds or so, after not being run for a couple of days or longer. There's probably enough left in the can for another oil change - I fill to half way up the knurled marks on the dip stick - and I'll use that up next year. After that though I think I'll go back to the Fuchs just because I've used it for so long, never had a problem and it's not that much more pricy if you look for special offers. In the meantime I've no feelings of anxiety using the Napa oil.