Tuning Newbie with an idea

[koalar]

Okay so help me out here, in the 4x4, does the drive go engine->gearbox->4wd->shafts->diffs->shafts->wheels (like almost every single 4x4 I can think of) or does it go engine->gearbox->front diff-front wheels
->4wd->rear diff??
The idea with the petrol panda was to go from the standard: engine (1.2) -> gearbox (5 speed) -> 4wd system -> diffs (1.2 4x4) ->wheels
To: engine (1.4) -> gearbox (6 speed) -> 4wd system -> diffs (1.2 4x4) -> wheels
Why would I need the driveshafts from the 100hp? Thanks!

you don't

said watch the driveshafts

1.1 and 1.2 are the same and the 100hp are different. I have no idea if the 1.3D are the same or not the info is on driveshaft suppliers websites. There are all the same length give or take a few mm but the spline counts are different. I leave it up to you to double check.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

you don't

said watch the driveshafts

1.1 and 1.2 are the same and the 100hp are different. I have no idea if the 1.3D are the same or not the info is on driveshaft suppliers websites. There are all the same length give or take a few mm but the spline counts are different. I leave it up to you to double check.

Sorry, a misunderstaning on my part, I thought you meant Ide have to bodge the 100hp shafts into the awd system, but you meant "be careful, you might break the 1.2 shafts". I think theyll be fine because 60hp between 2 wheels (30hp/shaft) is more than 100hp between 4 wheels (25hp/shaft), but thanks for the tip!

 

[koalar]

Sorry, a misunderstaning on my part, I thought you meant Ide have to bodge the 100hp shafts into the awd system, but you meant "be careful, you might break the 1.2 shafts". I think theyll be fine because 60hp between 2 wheels (30hp/shaft) is more than 100hp between 4 wheels (25hp/shaft), but thanks for the tip!

I meant be careful that the petrol and diesel are the same shafts as in the same spline count
I dont know I have never checked


normally diesel shafts are stronger but not always. That why they are normally fitted to rally cars in classes where only stock manufactured parts are permitted

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

I meant be careful that the petrol and diesel are the same shafts as in the same spline count
I dont know I have never checked


normally diesel shafts are stronger but not always. That why they are normally fitted to rally cars in classes where only stock manufactured parts are permitted

Why would I be mixing petrol and diesel shafts? (unless I keep breaking the petrol ones)

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Okay its time to rephrase this question so that its plain and simple. Will the panda 100hp 1.4 engine and gearbox mount onto the panda 4x4 1.2s transfer box/viscous coupling/bit that takes power to the back? Thanks

 

[koalar]

Why would I be mixing petrol and diesel shafts? (unless I keep breaking the petrol ones)

because in the two threads one of the ideas was to put a 1.3D remap into a 1.2 4x4

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

because in the two threads one of the ideas was to put a 1.3D remap into a 1.2 4x4

No, one idea is 100hp in the 1.2 4x4, the other idea is remapping the panda 1.3 4x4 aka the panda cross

 

[koalar]

Okay its time to rephrase this question so that its plain and simple. Will the panda 100hp 1.4 engine and gearbox mount onto the panda 4x4 1.2s transfer box/viscous coupling/bit that takes power to the back? Thanks

It will be possible. Might need to keep the 1.2 gearbox. the transfer is built into the diff housing. But it may just bolt off and swap over. Never tried.


ECU, Body computer wiring and dash will also have swapped. Even then it will probably need some programming to remove aircon


100HP has a different part number for the steering column will it work with a different body computer. Dont know.


can it be done. Yes. Is it a straight swap No. Anything is possible with enough time and money. Lots of little hidden snags will turn up. Will the Fuel pump flow rate be enough ?

it will certainly chew up the centre prop bearing. No big deal. they are replaceable.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Just a thought, would it be easier to swap the 4x4 subframe (front and rear) onto the 100hp? Since neither have esp or traction control or anything, and the 4wd system isnt electronically controlled? I know the rear subframes are very different because the 4x4 has independant suspension and the 100hp has essentially the same setup (but stiffer and lower) as the normal panda. Do you know if the front subframes are the same? Thanks! I think this would be such an excellent little car if it can be reasonably made to work!

 

[DaveMcT]

You might find that body shell brackets and mounting points (unused on 100HP) are full of paint and need to be tapped out but its unlikely the factory makes different body shells. One basic shell will cover all models.

100HP suspension is stiffened and lowered using long bump stops and short springs with the same wire diameter and coil angle as the 1.2. Cutting any spring makes it stiffer. Other parts are the same. e.g. 1.3 Multijet has the same part number for front struts as 100HP. 1.1 and 1.2 have different strut part numbers. 4x4 is different again.

The 4x4 rear subframe and associated parts should drop straight into 100HP body, but you would need the 4x4 car to acquire all of the necessary parts. It would need a modified exhaust as the 100HP goes straight down the middle with a big centre box right where the drive shaft runs.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Thats begining to sound much less complicated. Any idea if the front subframes are the same between the panda 4x4 and 100hp? If I find a panda 4x4 in a scrap yard how many bits do I need to pull off? (Ide probably try and buy the whole car minus the bumpers, interior, doors, lights ect, all the bits that scrapyards make the most money on)

 

[DaveMcT]

Front subframes are probably the same (Fiat don't change stuff for the sake of it) but it's unlikely anyone has compared them side by side. Go and look at the parts number on ePer. Link at top of forum page. You will also see the list of parts on 4x4 that are no on 2WD.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

It doesnt seem to have the panda 4x4 or 100hp

 

[koalar]

It doesnt seem to have the panda 4x4 or 100hp

the 4x4 is on ePer

go to the section you want to look at and click on all

flick through the photos at the bottom the hover over the model a pop-up appears to tell you which models it fits

100HP isnt on ePer

I have fitted a couple of exhaust and don't remember seeing an unused mount for the centre prop bearing. Then again I wouldn't be looking for it

this is where I would start to look to see if Fiat used the same shell. No mount no go. If its there you can move onto the other suspension mount locations

the short answer I dont know

 

[koalar]

Front subframes are probably the same (Fiat don't change stuff for the sake of it) but it's unlikely anyone has compared them side by side. Go and look at the parts number on ePer. Link at top of forum page. You will also see the list of parts on 4x4 that are no on 2WD.

looks like the central, left and right floor pans are different to me

70006/00 - FLOOR

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

V12 and 13 are the 4x4

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Okay so the question is, which car is easiest to use as a base, the 4x4 or the 100hp? From everything so far it seems that to use the 4x4 as a base I would need to swap the engine (and gearbox if possible), and all the wiring, and maybe the steering, and maybe the fuel system, and of course all the other bits that go with the 1.4 engine (radiator, alternator, AC ect) and do something about the exhaust.
And to use the 100hp as a base I would need to swap the rear subframe and suspension, possibly the gearbox, all the 4wd system, possibly the fuel tank, exhaust if it fits, if not would need a custom one, and now maybe the floor?
Its starting to feel like theres a reason nobody has done this before...
Apart from the exhaust, is it all just nuts and bolts and wiring? Thanks!

 

[koalar]

Correct

mechanically the 4x4 does not look like it will fit the 100hp shell without a lot of welding.

I am not 100% on this and could be wrong. There's a lot of different sections not just the central tunnel. You really need to go round the scrap yard with a tape measure to be sure

Putting a 1.4 or 1.4 turbo into a 1.2 4x4 is possible. It has been done a few times into the 1.2 2wd but Its not a trivial job. Engine uses different sensors and ECU. The dash and body computer has to communicate to ECU. Splicing it in and getting the immo, dials, warning lights so on all talking to each other will be a nightmare unless you have a lot of experience. Its not a simple bolt and swap job.

there's a couple of YouTube videos showing some of the problems that you have to be overcome. I advise you to search them out. If you can't follow whats being done electronically its probably not a job for you. One has got it working but dash looks like a Christmas tree and speedo dosnt work.

I know it sounds very negative. Which I dont want to. It will depend a lot on your skill level which we dont know.

but as far as I can see there isn't a simple bolt job possible for what you want to achieve

the latter 1.3D are very close to the 100HP performance yes in the 4x4 there more expensive but not when the other options require buying two cars

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Okay this is sounding like more of a pain in the backside than its worth for only 100hp. Has anyone broken the 4x4 system by putting too much power through it? Given its going to be just as much hassle to put a 1.4 turbo in, which has twice the power.
As for my experience, not much. As for my knowledge/understanading, plenty. Where that leaves my skill level, I have no idea, I've never tried, but if its just nuts, bolts, screws and wires, I tend to think "how hard can it be". But thats why Im checking if stuff fits together before spending £100s if not £1000s on cars and parts just to go "well ****, it doesnt fit"
If the floors are different and the looms are different, its a non-starter really. I thought it would either be swap the engine and gearbox, unplug the 1.2 ecu and plug in the 1.4 and drive off into the sunset, or swap all the 4x4 subframes onto the 100hp and drive off into the sunset. It appears that I greatly underestimated the differences in the wiring, the PAS, AC, fuel systems, and/or the differences between the floorpans.

 

[DaveMcT]

Check out the Seicento and Punto Mk1 and Mk2 forums. People there have tuned the 1.1 1.2 engine for more power. I believe the Punto made 75bhp in standard form. Today's 1.2 could be fitted with larger throttle body along with tubular exhaust and catalyst. Also gas flow the cylinder head ports. However It's always a compromise - more top end loses bottom end power. It's also not low cost. Exhaust manifold is from £200 for Punto 1.2. If that wont fit a Panda, cost of a custom made is anyone's guess.

As Koalar says electronics are a big issue. A tuned engine usually needs a special ECU that will not interface with the body computer (BCM) so you need another box to fake the signals to the BCM. Basically, the car is built to feed the costs of any changes back to Fiat. It's not a popular tuners car so there's nothing available that "can" be plugged in.

If you want to appreciate the work involved, get yourself David Vizard's books on BL's A Series. These are much older engines of course, no electronics and no catalyst but they are full of useful information about engines in general. They also had much more restrictive cylinder heads which allowed more room for improving the airflow.

Item no longer available

The item you are looking for is no longer available. <br/>

www.abebooks.co.uk

"How to modify your Mini" has become a book classic. Not cheap but appears to be appreciating in value.
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31070550136&searchurl=xpod=off&bi=0&ds=30&bx=off&sortby=17&tn=mini&an=david+vizard&recentlyadded=all&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

Vizard also has lectures on You Tube. Mostly about American V8s but the principles are the same and he does cover the BL Mini in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+vizard+how+to+build+horsepower

 

[koalar]

Okay this is sounding like more of a pain in the backside than its worth for only 100hp. Has anyone broken the 4x4 system by putting too much power through it? Given its going to be just as much hassle to put a 1.4 turbo in, which has twice the power.
As for my experience, not much. As for my knowledge/understanading, plenty. Where that leaves my skill level, I have no idea, I've never tried, but if its just nuts, bolts, screws and wires, I tend to think "how hard can it be". But thats why Im checking if stuff fits together before spending £100s if not £1000s on cars and parts just to go "well ****, it doesnt fit"
If the floors are different and the looms are different, its a non-starter really. I thought it would either be swap the engine and gearbox, unplug the 1.2 ecu and plug in the 1.4 and drive off into the sunset, or swap all the 4x4 subframes onto the 100hp and drive off into the sunset. It appears that I greatly underestimated the differences in the wiring, the PAS, AC, fuel systems, and/or the differences between the floorpans.

correct none of your options as far as I know are a straight forward bolt together. Sorry