Technical New style starter motor/old

[Kentds1]

Still possibly a weak master cylinder.
This is a two person job.
Just to prove it is only hydraulics, (master or slave, with an external slave cylinder) it is sometimes possible to push the clutch arm out as far as possible at the bell housing by using the hydraulics, then use a bar or tyre lever to move it the rest of the way. if it can be safely held in that position then start engine and see if it engages all gears correctly, if so then at least you know it is external.
Though make sure you do it safely

Didn't even think about doing what you said it never crossed my mind. It went into gear doing that.
Even tried bleeding with someone holding clutch down when I pressure bled it.
Also compressed the slave while bleeding.
Just annoyed it's got worse with a brand new parts lol

 

[bugsymike]

Didn't even think about doing what you said it never crossed my mind. It went into gear doing that.
Even tried bleeding with someone holding clutch down when I pressure bled it.
Also compressed the slave while bleeding.
Just annoyed it's got worse with a brand new parts lol

No good with pedal down, as that closes the inlet from the reservoir to the piston in master cylinder. If you look at a cut away drawing of a master cylinder you will see what I mean.
I have tried compressing slave , but more to push any air in slave out the bleeder.
I am full of little tricks learnt over 55 years in trade, some better than others
Did you try my other trick of removing the bleeder and keep topping reservoir but not touching pedal , this gives a greater flow and sometimes pulls the air through with it. It often worked on older cars with tired master cylinder.
Apart from that any chance the new parts are cra*, I went and helped some lads at another garage who were tearing their hair out getting a good brake on an old Series Land Rover, when I saw the make of parts , I just told them to sling them and get a branded make , problem solved and happy customer

 

[Kentds1]

No good with pedal down, as that closes the inlet from the reservoir to the piston in master cylinder. If you look at a cut away drawing of a master cylinder you will see what I mean.
I have tried compressing slave , but more to push any air in slave out the bleeder.
I am full of little tricks learnt over 55 years in trade, some better than others
Did you try my other trick of removing the bleeder and keep topping reservoir but not touching pedal , this gives a greater flow and sometimes pulls the air through with it. It often worked on older cars with tired master cylinder.
Apart from that any chance the new parts are cra*, I went and helped some lads at another garage who were tearing their hair out getting a good brake on an old Series Land Rover, when I saw the make of parts , I just told them to sling them and get a branded make , problem solved and happy customer

So basically like a gravity bleed ? And the brand is pagid brand same brand as my disc and pads.
You definitely know many tricks I can vouch for that. Ive bought a new master aswel that's a febi blistien brand, if I put that on do I have to prime that before fitting ? Then bleed all system again ?

 

[bugsymike]

So basically like a gravity bleed ? And the brand is pagid brand same brand as my disc and pads.
You definitely know many tricks I can vouch for that. Ive bought a new master aswel that's a febi blistien brand, if I put that on do I have to prime that before fitting ? Then bleed all system again ?

Do you know when we still had a British car industry, on the production line there was a large tank of brake fluid high up in the factory, then an adaptor would be fitted to the reservoir tops and they would simply undo the bleeders to do the brakes as well on the production line, so no pumping required.
It should be OK to just use your pressure bleeder, I assume slightly less than 20psi? The Gunsen one I sometimes use is a bit more basic than yours and connects to a spare tyre as long as under 20psi.
Just connect it as usual but don't work the pedal.
Bleeding before installation I only do for brake cylinders with several ports normally.
Febi should be good.

 

[Kentds1]

Ahhh so that type of bleeding is good, currently trying that method. My pressure bleeder can go as far as 80psi but I pump to 18psi Todo it

 

[Kentds1]

Sorry I sent that without carrying on lol.
So I'm currently doing that other method see if this works and trying to figure out which line on fire wall is that clutch master cylinder connection,

 

[Kentds1]

Hard to determine which one it is

 

[bugsymike]

Ahhh so that type of bleeding is good, currently trying that method. My pressure bleeder can go as far as 80psi but I pump to 18psi Todo it

Correct, do not exceed 18/20psi or it will cause damage.
I see you are not taking the bleed nipple right out, this restricts the flow making it harder to gravity bleed.
I tend to let the fluid run, then seal it all off and chuck water everywhere to clear the brake fluid, more messy but more effective.
If you look at the brake reservoir the highest hose from it feeds the clutch master cylinder, which will be inline with the clutch pedal .
I can't remember on your vehicle but some have re clutch master cylinder inside above the pedals, I did my daughters VW Golf one like that and it was a pain in the ar*e
The reason the pipe is highest is if clutch fluid fails it will not drain the brakes system supply.

 

[Kentds1]

Correct, do not exceed 18/20psi or it will cause damage.
I see you are not taking the bleed nipple right out, this restricts the flow making it harder to gravity bleed.
I tend to let the fluid run, then seal it all off and chuck water everywhere to clear the brake fluid, more messy but more effective.
If you look at the brake reservoir the highest hose from it feeds the clutch master cylinder, which will be inline with the clutch pedal .
I can't remember on your vehicle but some have re clutch master cylinder inside above the pedals, I did my daughters VW Golf one like that and it was a pain in the ar*e
The reason the pipe is highest is if clutch fluid fails it will not drain the brakes system supply.

I got everything off, hoses clips you name it and then stupid design it is the plastic shroud under dash covers it so it's impossible to pull it out so now it's trying to find out how to loosen that to pull it out, seems they like to make these awkward designs.
The standard master cylinder is plastic and looks worse for wear and the febi one is all metal so don't know if that's a bonus. I think that other thing you was on about it has got one of the they looks to be another cylinder type thing above everything.

 

[Kentds1]

If you can see where it bolts in the edge of master cylinder casing is under the plastic bit that goes around footwell

 

[bugsymike]

If you can see where it bolts in the edge of master cylinder casing is under the plastic bit that goes around footwell

I have not worked on the Fiorino, is there any clues on uTube, someone is bound to have fitted one.
Sometimes you need to be a gynecologist to work on vehicles these days.

 

[Kentds1]

I have not worked on the Fiorino, is there any clues on uTube, someone is bound to have fitted one.
Sometimes you need to be a gynecologist to work on vehicles these days.

So a full day taking out all that bottom area as there was no other way. Managed to find 1 video of some guys in India working in a Punto with the same setup. Got it in bled it up better pedal feel but same problem, not sure what else it could be, no clutch slip, no rattle from clutch are in gear or out of gear so I'm stumped

 

[bugsymike]

What is the history of the clutch engagement issue from the beginning with the need to fit the slave cylinder?

 

[Kentds1]

What is the history of the clutch engagement issue from the beginning with the need to fit the slave cylinder?

So before changing the slave cylinder it was a hit and miss if it would go into reverse, sometimes it would grind other times it wouldn't, went into gear acceptable but was stiff but maybe me thinking it's stiff coming from a BMW I drive when I'm not in the van. So it judders like mad if you don't don't put enough rev on when accelerating but it's done that for about 5k miles.
So I put that new slave cylinder on pagid which is known for being a top brand but soon as I set off after doing that it started with the difficulty going into gear. Just got home now and it grinded going into 5th on motorway, also when I got home it got stuck in reverse gear I couldnt get it out with clutch fully pressed down so I dare say after fitting master today it's got even worse.
I gravity bled the system until fluid came out the slave, then hooked up the pressure bleeder and run a liter through it.

 

[bugsymike]

So before changing the slave cylinder it was a hit and miss if it would go into reverse, sometimes it would grind other times it wouldn't, went into gear acceptable but was stiff but maybe me thinking it's stiff coming from a BMW I drive when I'm not in the van. So it judders like mad if you don't don't put enough rev on when accelerating but it's done that for about 5k miles.
So I put that new slave cylinder on pagid which is known for being a top brand but soon as I set off after doing that it started with the difficulty going into gear. Just got home now and it grinded going into 5th on motorway, also when I got home it got stuck in reverse gear I couldnt get it out with clutch fully pressed down so I dare say after fitting master today it's got even worse.
I gravity bled the system until fluid came out the slave, then hooked up the pressure bleeder and run a liter through it.

Ah,ha!
So assuming now the hydraulics feel roughly normal now, try this trick as a test (your risk)
Do a very lazy pull away several times slipping the clutch possibly up a steep hill, if after wards it will go into gear better and with less judder pulling away, then it probably is getting oil on the clutch which you have temporarily burnt off.Most likely from the gearbox oil running down the shaft into the clutch centre plate.
If it makes no difference then it is more likely a damaged clutch assembly not completely disengaging when pedal right down, this will also cause judder as plate is probably distorted.
So I am sorry neither is a simple fix, although I would sooner replace the clutch than have to have the gearbox oil leak fixed and then replace the clutch also!
From your last comments it does point towards a gearbox that has had a hard life.

 

[Kentds1]

Ah,ha!
So assuming now the hydraulics feel roughly normal now, try this trick as a test (your risk)
Do a very lazy pull away several times slipping the clutch possibly up a steep hill, if after wards it will go into gear better and with less judder pulling away, then it probably is getting oil on the clutch which you have temporarily burnt off.Most likely from the gearbox oil running down the shaft into the clutch centre plate.
If it makes no difference then it is more likely a damaged clutch assembly not completely disengaging when pedal right down, this will also cause judder as plate is probably distorted.
So I am sorry neither is a simple fix, although I would sooner replace the clutch than have to have the gearbox oil leak fixed and then replace the clutch also!
From your last comments it does point towards a gearbox that has had a hard life.

Thanks for the trick I will try that tomorrow there's nothing to loose seen as though I've changed everything except the clutch.
If I end up doing a full clutch kit I've basically changed all the wear and tear parts within 12 month of owning it. I bought this van due to how cheap insurance was on it and how good it is on fuel but spend a fortune in parts.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the trick I will try that tomorrow there's nothing to loose seen as though I've changed everything except the clutch.
If I end up doing a full clutch kit I've basically changed all the wear and tear parts within 12 month of owning it. I bought this van due to how cheap insurance was on it and how good it is on fuel but spend a fortune in parts.

May still need an gearbox job , which takes the shine of a bit.
Is there any sign of gear oil around the bellhousing area?

 

[Kentds1]

May still need an gearbox job , which takes the shine of a bit.
Is there any sign of gear oil around the bellhousing area?

Clutch kit wise would you say LUK or valeo brand ?

 

[bugsymike]

Clutch kit wise would you say LUK or valeo brand ?

Either should be OK , but out of preference Valeo.

 

[Kentds1]

Just a quick update bugsymike, got new kit, got box out and release bearing is toasty, not sure if that could cause it all, springs on pressure plate extremely worn. Maybe previous owner was sat on the clutch at the lights all the time