Technical Multipla JTD 1.9 Clutch Replacement (in progress...)

[widemouthfrog]

PPS. Another hot topic discussed previously... wear on clutch fingers/does the release bearing contact the clutch fingers when you're not pressing the clutch pedal?

I think the answer must be YES.

Reason: Before I reinstalled the clutch slave cylinder, the clutch lever was completely free to move, when I installed the slave cylinder, there was resistance from the clutch lever which could only have come from the clutch fingers/ springs pushing against the release bearing which pushes against the clutch fork which pushes against the clutch lever.

In which case, it's not a particularly clever bit of design as the release bearing will be permanently rotating. My only thought is that there is intentional 'bedding in' of the bearing's contact face into the fingers (hence we all see the wear groove on them) and this creates a) a larger contact surface, & b) eventually, some free play so that the release bearing isn't turning all the time.

For the top fork bearing, you could try wrapping a few winds of aluminium cooking foil around the outside of the bearing and then tap it back into place, but the foil will probably just ruck up without going into the hole; or try bedding the bearing in some Milliput (make sure you key the surface and get it really clean though). Roughly how much slop do you reckon there is?

 

[MarkX]

My only thought is that there is intentional 'bedding in' of the bearing's contact face into the fingers...

That's what I think. The surfaces of my LUK clutch fingers are quite rough/non-uniform which I don't think is a mistake.

For the top fork bearing, you could try wrapping a few winds of aluminium cooking foil around the outside of the bearing and then tap it back into place, but the foil will probably just ruck up without going into the hole; or try bedding the bearing in some Milliput (make sure you key the surface and get it really clean though). Roughly how much slop do you reckon there is?

If "slop" means "slack" then 0.25-0.5mm. Seems a pity that one worn component - the clutch fork bellhousing hole - has the potential to introduce uneven wear in other areas of an otherwise wholly new clutch subsystem.

Car battery: Multimeter says only 6 volts! Did the battery discharge overnight? Did I leave the headlights on? - I don't think so, don't remember them lighting at all and the horn was distinctly feeble yesterday evening.

Researched car battery (HB013) at Halfords - £75! That's a lot for me. Will try to find something cheaper. Local partstealers shut till Tuesday.

 

[MarkX]

In which case, it's not a particularly clever bit of design as the release bearing will be permanently rotating. My only thought is that there is intentional 'bedding in' of the bearing's contact face into the fingers (hence we all see the wear groove on them) and this creates a) a larger contact surface, & b) eventually, some free play so that the release bearing isn't turning all the time.

But as the clutch fingers wear, wouldn't the constant pressure from the slave cylinder piston on the clutch lever - even with your foot off the clutch pedal - cause any slack between release bearing and clutch fingers to be taken up immediately so there would never be any free play?

If you want a definitive answer how about phoning LUK (T. 01432 264 264) or Valeo (T. 01527 838 300)?

Car battery: Eurocarparts: £54. That's more like it.

 

[MultiplaAbarth]

I tried to replace the top bush on the clutch arm yesterday, but give up!
Removed air filter, battery, tray, big rubber hose, unbolted slave cylinder..etc
Thought I could just replace top bush without removing gearbox, using a screwdriver to lever it out via its top lip.
Yes, part of lip cracked off, bush stuck fast, give up. Not going there.
So if I ever get the gearbox out again , I have the 2 bushes to replace, unless the outside casing is worn, which I think probably is.
The bushes have been put in a plastic bag in a nice quiet part of the shed, hopefully they will stay there for quite a while....Time for a cuppa...

 

[MarkX]

I tried to replace the top bush on the clutch arm yesterday, but give up!... bush stuck fast, give up.

Must be a tight fit. Mine's dead loose in the hole so I don't expect it to be an issue - if I can devise a way to take up the slack.

 

[MarkX]

Progress Today...

- Checked battery voltage with multimeter: 6V only!
- Went to Halfords to check battery prices: £75 - I don't think so...
- Installed windscreen washer workaround

Checked battery voltage with multimeter: I'm going to try trickle charging the battery again, starting tonight, see what voltage we can get up to.

Went to Halfords to check battery prices: £22 more than a good rival! What sort of profit margin are Halford's on? Europarts do one for £54.

Installed windscreen washer workaround: So the story is no front windscreen squirty device. Replaced the washer pump, new one works ok. But still no squirty. So decided to circumvent the original washer tubing. I've laid in new tubing from the pump routed: inside the OS of the engine bay, out of the engine bay via the back OS corner of the bonnet, into an access hole just left of the OS windscreen wiper arm to a new T-piece under the windscreen washer grill, and from there by equal length pieces of tubing to the washer jets.

When I first tried this arrangement hooking the pump up to the battery, still no squirty, pump spinning but no output. I decided that the other - original - tube connected to the other pump outlet could be causing a problem, so I disconnected it and connected a short length of new tubing with the end open. Result: windscreen now gets squirted. However, when the pump isn't working the washer bottle contents drains out of the open-ended tube! Solution: Block the end of the tube with a screw (one of the replaced rear crankshaft seal screws worked fine). Cable-tied both new tubes up to tidy things up.

Can't get the washer to work with the pump connected up properly, but will get the battery sorted before I try again/sort that out. At least I know everything including, and downstream of, the pump is working now.

Also the new rubber grommet, which came with the new pump, which seals the pump input tube into the washer bottle isn't deep enough and leaks out the contents of the washer bottle. So I replaced with the original grommet - which is deeper - off the old pump. Sorted.

And yes there is 6in/15cm of washer tubing on the outside of the car between the bonnet and windscreen, but hopefully this temporary arrangement will get me through the MOT.

Mark

 

[widemouthfrog]

Shame about the battery . If it wasn't for that, I think you could be back up and running by now.

There used to be an online division of Sutton Auto Factors (SAF) that specialised in batteries. I can't remember what they called themselves, but they were very competitive on price. However, no amount of googling has turned them up so I can only assume they've packed it in. Bosch S4 (blue top, 4yr guarantee) and S5 (silver top, 5 yr guarantee, slightly better CCA) series batteries are both good. For the Multi JTD I think the exact part number is S4005 & S5005, but best check that yourself.

 

[MarkX]

Shame about the battery . If it wasn't for that, I think you could be back up and running by now.

Yep. It's frustrating after all the work I've put in.

Bosch S4 (blue top, 4yr guarantee) and S5 (silver top, 5 yr guarantee, slightly better CCA) series batteries are both good. For the Multi JTD I think the exact part number is S4005 & S5005, but best check that yourself.

Cheers.

 

[MarkX]

Battery this morning: Had it on trickle charge since I went to bed last night, so about 8 hours. Looking a bit healthier: multimeter shows about 10V, was 6V.

Pics below (please note: in the first pic the charger is turned off)

The automatic charger is shoving about 3A into the battery at the moment. I'm expecting the charge to drop as the day goes on.

Will leave it charging till this evening and check again.

Mark

 

[widemouthfrog]

Identical charger to mine!

I see that's my 1,000th post too! :woot:

 

[MarkX]

i see that's my 1,000th post too!

CONGRATS!!

 

[Davren]

I hope the problem is just a duff battery, it's also not been used for 6 months.

Battery this morning: Had it on trickle charge since I went to bed last night, so about 8 hours. Looking a bit healthier: multimeter shows about 10V, was 6V.

The automatic charger is shoving about 3A into the battery at the moment. I'm expecting the charge to drop as the day goes on.

Will leave it charging till this evening and check again.

Mark

A battery that's been left in a discharged state for more than a month or two will never fully recover.
.

 

[MultiplaAbarth]

From practical experience I agree, you may have a small chance of reviving it, but come winter it will let you down when you most need it, so false economies apply.
I avoid Halfords like the plague (slightly untrue, I love looking at the stereos and sat navs..) because of the huge markup on stuff.
Amazing fact no 20498 : Halfords have stopped selling fan belts, I know this..

 

[MarkX]

but come winter it will let you down when you most need it...

I'm not worried about Winter, that's a long way off. At the moment I'm worried about what I can afford now and not. But if I need a new battery to get going again, I'll get one.

I avoid Halfords like the plague... because of the huge markup on stuff.

I think of Halfords as like a convenience store - you go there when you need something quickly and no-one else locally has what you're looking for, but you pay for the privilege.

Amazing fact no 20498 : Halfords have stopped selling fan belts, I know this..

Think I mentioned that one store told me they are stopping selling individual sockets. I wonder what Halfords is going to morph into?

 

[MultiplaAbarth]

Personally its worth trying to get the battery revived, purely because of the cost, I've never had much luck doing that, but, I have a beetle based beachbuggy, which I built 15 years ago, and a work mate donated a Vauxhall Cavalier heavy duty battery to me as he'd bought a new one, that was about 8 years ago, I'm still using it and its still going strong, must be a "record breaker"...and although I dont use the car much, whenever I do start it up, I always use jump leads from a running car, so I dont damage the battery, as in saving the internal plates from high current induced distortion, ramble, ramble.

Think I mentioned that one store told me they are stopping selling individual sockets. I wonder what Halfords is going to morph into?

Thats easy, one day they will be part of Tescos, or thinking out of the box, Lidl's..

 

[boilermansab]

Online division of saf auto is wwe.buypartsby.co.uk

 

[widemouthfrog]

They called themselves by something different though, and it took a bit of digging to find out that they were indeed part of SAF. All of which is by the by, as although they still list the Bosch S4005 at £60 and the S5005 at £66.00, neither are available. Looks like they only sell Yuasa now, albeit at a good price:

http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/buy/FIA..._/73/batteries/car-batteries/yuasa-batteries/

You may need to change the model year to suit your Multi, MarkX.

 

[MarkX]

Progress Today...

Battery: Been charging all day and still only producing 10V. I think it's goosed. Will ring round partstealers tomorrow. Thanks for the info widemouthfrog.

Replaced NS front suspension arm: The lower balljoint boot was split so the arm needed replacing. Removal of the old arm was not difficult, but it was a new procedure for me so I wasn't quick. Installing the new arm I found hard, mainly lining up and getting the 4 suspension arm bracket bolts into their holes. Lots of levering and cussing. It took me a LONG TIME. The last bolt to go in - the long bolt at the back - was out by 1-1.5mm and I couldn't shift it. The reason it wouldn't shift, I discovered, was because the back of the suspension arm rear bracket was hitting up against the anti-roll bar bush bracket. Another bit of cr*p design from Fiat. Loosened the ARBB bracket, and with a bit of levering and bashing I got the bolt in. Relief. The Fiat jack took pride of place again, first to jack up the car, then to push home the lower balljoint pin. The pin went in easily once pin and hole were lined up. FYI: To push in the pin I used a 33mm socket (on top of the jack) which fits perfectly over the underside of the balljoint.

For anyone tackling the suspension arm, the bolt/socket sizes are:

- Balljoint pin locking bolt (both nut and bolt): 17mm
- Suspension arm bracket bolts (x 4): 15mm
- Anti-roll bar bush bracket bolts (x 2): 13mm

Something to lever with might come in handy too.

I followed http://sites.google.com/site/fiatmultipla/Home/repairs/FiatMultipla-Wishbonereplacement.pdf by MoriatyTheMundane.

Mark

 

[widemouthfrog]

But as the clutch fingers wear, wouldn't the constant pressure from the slave cylinder piston on the clutch lever - even with your foot off the clutch pedal - cause any slack between release bearing and clutch fingers to be taken up immediately so there would never be any free play?

You're right. Bit of a mental block on my part :bang::bang::bang:.

So, there are two springs in the clutch hydraulics to return everything to the 'rest' position - a lightweight coil spring in the barrel of the master cylinder (to bring the clutch pedal back up) and the pressure plate fingers popping back that push on the release bearing/clutch fork arms/lever arm/slave cylinder piston. Is there a spring in the slave cylinder?

 

[MarkX]

So, there are two springs in the clutch hydraulics to return everything to the 'rest' position - a lightweight coil spring in the barrel of the master cylinder (to bring the clutch pedal back up) and the pressure plate fingers popping back that push on the release bearing/clutch fork arms/lever arm/slave cylinder piston. Is there a spring in the slave cylinder?

So does this mean that the release bearing is spinning all the time because it is in contact with the clutch fingers all the time, whether or not you have your foot on the clutch pedal? It appears so. Seems a waste of a bearing as most /99% of the time the clutch pedal isn't being pressed. However, the alternative would be to have the release bearing away from the clutch fingers when the clutch pedal isn't being pressed, which would introduce a lag/"clunk" when you pressed the clutch pedal as the slack is taken up and the release bearing hits the clutch fingers. But as I said why not ask the experts/manufacturers?

Is there a spring in the slave cylinder? - Don't know for certain, but I think it will be like a brake slave cylinder. If there's a return spring in the master cylinder why would you need one in the slave? As the master cylinder returns to it's starting position when you take your foot off the pedal, hydraulics will pull the slave cylinder piston back to it's starting position (helped by pressure from the clutch fingers via the fork mechanism). GCSE Physics.