Technical Multipla crankshaft problem!

[HughJarsse]

OK, so, 2 weeks ago, multipla refused to start. Cranked over, but would not fire. Diagnostics throws up the dreaded P1320 (crankshaft/camshaft etc)
Got it towed to the garage, and Dan checked with his diags, and said it was a camshaft sensor gone. Replaced, refused to start again, throwing up the P1320 again.
Tried another make of sensor and still would niot fire up.
Finally got a Bosch one, and it started, no fault code, but then refused to start a second time, again throwing up P1320 Further investigation showed that the new sensor was shredded!!
Dan then looked at the sensor mounting and the gear wheel that it runs on, ( circled in red in pic 1 ) and found that the lipped edge the sender runs on was so worn, (circled in pic 2) that it kept clipping the sensors edge, wrecking it. So, he replaced the gear wheel with a new one, and another sensor. Car now starts and fires up, but still throws up the P1320 fault code , and EML comes on.
Dan has now checked the timing, and the belt/flywheel, (both were renewed just 2 years ago, at £800!!) and wiring, and all is as it should be. Car runs OK, but refuses to clear the fault code, every time it's cleared, it returns as soon as engine started.
MOT due in 2 weeks, and won't pass with the EML and a code flashing. Dan has spent hours trying to solve this one, (and ££'s too probably) going well above normal, but is now running out of ideas. Looks like it might have to be scrapped, and will need to find something to replace it.
Unsure where to go with this now. Any advice??

2 weeks without transport!

 

[bugsymike]

Just a guess , but can it throw up that error code if there is a mis match between crank and camshaft sensors?
Could anything have broken off the cam pulley when it failed that is affecting the crank pulley reluctor causing it to give a bad reading?
Do you have one of the ABS testing cardsthat SKF bearings used to give out free at trade shows?
I used one to check the crank reluctor on a Fiat Scudo with the Peugeot engine.

 

[HughJarsse]

Just a guess , but can it throw up that error code if there is a mis match between crank and camshaft sensors?
Could anything have broken off the cam pulley when it failed that is affecting the crank pulley reluctor causing it to give a bad reading?
Do you have one of the ABS testing cardsthat SKF bearings used to give out free at trade shows?
I used one to check the crank reluctor on a Fiat Scudo with the Peugeot engine.

Hi Mike,
Spoken to Dan, (mechanic) and he seems to think that there's not any problem between the crank and cam sensors, and he's had a really good look and cleaned everything down in the area, (the cam pulley wasn't broken, just badly worn on the edge where I put the red circle, and was worn so thin, that it had bent slightly inwards, which Dan seemed to think was what shredded the sensor. He said he did a through check before replacing the gear and cam sensor, and found nothing. 'Strange that with a 'pattern' sensor, it wouldn't fire, yet with a Bosch one it does? Belt and tensioner are OK, having been done a while ago along with the water pump, and flywheel when clutch was done.
Have added the MES scan printout from my laptop, showing the 'possible' faults, most of which Dan thinks he has eliminated (belt, flywheel, sensor, etc). The rpm is spot on as well, so think we can eliminate that.
Not sure about the 'phonic wheel' though?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,
Spoken to Dan, (mechanic) and he seems to think that there's not any problem between the crank and cam sensors, and he's had a really good look and cleaned everything down in the area, (the cam pulley wasn't broken, just badly worn on the edge where I put the red circle, and was worn so thin, that it had bent slightly inwards, which Dan seemed to think was what shredded the sensor. He said he did a through check before replacing the gear and cam sensor, and found nothing. 'Strange that with a 'pattern' sensor, it wouldn't fire, yet with a Bosch one it does? Belt and tensioner are OK, having been done a while ago along with the water pump, and flywheel when clutch was done.
Have added the MES scan printout from my laptop, showing the 'possible' faults, most of which Dan thinks he has eliminated (belt, flywheel, sensor, etc). The rpm is spot on as well, so think we can eliminate that.
Not sure about the 'phonic wheel' though?

View attachment 474373

I was going to say about those ABS test cards and saw one advertised cheaply then found it was in Australia.
The one I got given was by a SKF bearing rep at a Mechanics Trade Show in Exeter several years ago.
Whilst I have used it to test ABS rings on many cars, I found it useful on the 2010 Fiat Scudo 2.0 16v with the Peugeot RHK engine when doing the cam belt as they have a strange centering tool for setting the timing more precise at the crankshaft pulley.
Even a magnetised screwdriver brushed across that phonic wheel can damage it as you may well know.
Your MES does seem to indicate worth looking in that direction plus may check for wires starting to break/corrode to the sensors.
Another thing with the sensors, both crank and cam ones is they sometimes give the option to slide them further in or out of contact with the phonic wheels. Obviously you don't want them touching, but providing they are running true them I tend to move them into to touch and then just pull back a fraction so clear of getting damaged, but near enough to get a good signal, if you see what I mean.

 

[jackwhoo]

Doesn't have phonic wheel. Crank sensor picks up directly from crank inside engine block.


If cam pulley as worn as sounds the "edge" that signals ecu could easily be worn out so much as to cause the problem-I think you have said this has been replaced.

Oh the cam pulley can easily shear it's key off too but that wouldn't cause your code.


Crank sensor usually causes hot start problems but you never know.....

 

[jackwhoo]

Ah I've had an idea -Don't laugh.
The crank sprocket may have shifted shearing it's key to crank. As tdc is set from this sprocket Dan would have using this to align for belt fitting so it would look correct but would be "out" The crank sensor picks up from crankshaft itself not the crank pulley. This would explain the symptoms to a T.
Best
Jack
Do not scrap it we need multiplas bringing you to the world

 

[jackwhoo]

@HughJarsse

 

[HughJarsse]

Doesn't have phonic wheel. Crank sensor picks up directly from crank inside engine block.


If cam pulley as worn as sounds the "edge" that signals ecu could easily be worn out so much as to cause the problem-I think you have said this has been replaced.

Oh the cam pulley can easily shear it's key off too but that wouldn't cause your code.


Crank sensor usually causes hot start problems but you never know.....

Hi Charlie,

Just picked these up, so replying now.

OK, so the cam pulley that was badly worn, was replaced with a brand new OEM one Dan ordered, and having spoken to him today, he said that he also replaced the key when installing it, and was certain there was no movement, when he set the TDC, and that the keyway was unmarked, and in good condition. (apparently the new key was supplied with the pulley)
He's also spent time playing with the the sensor position, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
re Hot starting, it wasn't having that problem before it failed, always started on the buttom, hot or cold.
Dan is now wondering if the belt has stretched slightly, and the tensioner possibly lost a bit of tension, allowing the belt to 'slip' a fraction.
We have decided to put it in for the MOT first, (it runs out next Thursday) and to see what that throws up, (along with the management light) before deciding what to do next. Dan hopes replacing the cam belt and tensioner (water pump as well whilst it's all apart) will sort it out, but thinks getting the MOT decision best before commiting to doing that, especially if it doesn't work, or car needs major work (shouldn't do, but you never know)

 

[jackwhoo]

I think there could very much be a problem with the Crank sprocket shifting on the Crank nose

 

[jackwhoo]

Or not having /using the special tool to set the Crank at tdc

There is a distracting notch in the engine block that is not a timing mark but rather a drain for the belt case .

 

[jackwhoo]

Check out this video from this search, 1.9jtd tdc https://share.google/9cYOnsq2zDoQly7Uu