Technical multijet sometimes not starting. Low voltage at solenoid trigger.

[Paul Jaggard]

After 190k miles in 17 years, finally a serious problem.
A few weeks ago, catastrophic clutch failure...required a new gearbox too.
A severe thumping, using a solid towing-bar, resulting in the towing hook tearing off the metal mounting, and plastic bumper.
Usual garage too busy, so neighbour replaced clutch and box.
Everything seemed ok, (although there was a very small thumping sound just as the engine caught)
OK for a time, then after a long hot journey, wouldn't start.
The fault has recurred sometimes since. After waiting a few hours it starts again.

I've since added a secondary earth from battery to engine, and thought that this had solved my problem

Now, usually it starts fine, but sometimes it acts as if there is only a low voltage getting to the solenoid trigger.
I've noticed that the tank fuel pump doesn't turn off after a few seconds like it should.

I've had 1 blown 20a ignition switch, fuse a week or two ago. (maybe I left the ignition switch on too long when the engine wouldn't start?)
Today, I've discovered that if I put on the interior light, then turn the ignition switch to its second position, if it dims slightly then the engine will start.
However if it dims a lot (to around 6v) and the solenoid sounds feeble, then it won't start.
I've had the starter off, and it always works fine on the bench (though I have to push the interior solenoid button with something harder than my finger to give continuity at the main contacts.
My Haynes circuit diagram takes 2 wires from the second position of the switch. One via engine compartment fusebox, and "short circuit coupling" (whatever that is), to the ECU.
And the other via passenger fusebox to Body Control Unit.
The interior light seems to get its power from the body control unit.

Why would my ignition switch give this low voltage, and will I have to dismantle the steering wheel to get at it?
Or is the problem elsewhere? ECU? BCU? Relay?
I noticed that my neighbour was much rougher manhandling the ECU cables than I would dare be, but unplugging, and reinserting them didn't help.

After 17 years virtually trouble free, it has come as a bit of a shock to have these problems all at once!

Has anyone else experienced anything similar, or have any suggestions?

 

[SPORTPACK50]

If you do need to go to a garage, I would thoroughly recommend these guys:

italicar

Fiat, Alfa Romeo & Lancia Specialists In Norwich. Servicing, Sales, Restoration & Parts.

www.italicar.co.uk

They did a brilliant job of changing cam belt and water pump on my 100hp all for £144 inc parts.

 

[koalar]

The glow plugs are only on instantaneously, according to the fascia light They shouldn't be on at these ambient temperatures should they?

Correct,
they are temperature controlled the warmer the ambient temperature the shorter they are on for, you will still need to wait for the battery to bounce back and the meter to catch up, according to fiat they always come on however briefly, this may or may not be correct as the model is always being improved and changed, same with the pump, I can see in the video it's starting to recover and is up to 11.77 after 12 seconds which sound normal to me

I've just had another theory. Did the severe juddering that the car suffered when being towed, damage the batteries internal cell connections, to give an intermittent fault?
The other panda was bought for a Ukrainian refugee staying with us. She got married yesterday, back in Ukraine, and will need the car to get to work next week, at least she doesn't travel more than a few miles from home, and if the battery fails on her, we have a quick solution.

Fingers crossed, it's all pointing so far to a faulty battery, even though it passes a battery checker

It's hot & sunny here, I think I may drive 30miles to the seaside, and see what happens....

Sounds like a plan

Take your meter with you

Before switching the engine off see if it's still outputting 14v

 

[Paul Jaggard]

Its not the battery!
I drove 16 miles to the outskirts of "Naarridge", parked, then connected the meter to the battery terminals, and tried to restart it.
Voltage was 12.77. All I got was a feeble click. the voltage only dropped to about 12v.
I videoed it, but there was a lot of traffic noise.
I cycled into Town, wandered around, came back 2 hours later, and it made a feeble attempt to start. Just about turned the engine over.
The clock did not start to flash. Minimum mm recorded voltage was 10.5v
Waited for 18 mins, then tried again, and it just started, I'll try to upload the video later.
Drove 16 miles home, onto ramps...!
Tried to start it again, it started slightly more easily than before, but not well.
Clock still OK
Now, 3 hours later, and colder, it starts perfectly.

 

[koalar]

Its not the battery!
I drove 16 miles to the outskirts of "Naarridge", parked, then connected the meter to the battery terminals, and tried to restart it.
Voltage was 12.77. All I got was a feeble click. the voltage only dropped to about 12v.
I videoed it, but there was a lot of traffic noise.
I cycled into Town, wandered around, came back 2 hours later, and it made a feeble attempt to start. Just about turned the engine over.
The clock did not start to flash. Minimum mm recorded voltage was 10.5v
Waited for 18 mins, then tried again, and it just started, I'll try to upload the video later.
Drove 16 miles home, onto ramps...!
Tried to start it again, it started slightly more easily than before, but not well.
Clock still OK
Now, 3 hours later, and colder, it starts perfectly.

That great

It's narrowed down to quite bit

The battery and alternator been eliminated

As it fails you need to do the voltage drop test I posted earlier

 

[Paul Jaggard]

Video of starting in Norwich

 

[Paul Jaggard]

I got as far as ordering a new starter motor, then cancelled it! I convinced myself that it was a low voltage getting to the solenoid coil.
Does that sound possible, from the video?
Why does it seem to improve when cold?

 

[Paul Jaggard]

I couldn't follow the voltage drop test that you suggested, it seemed to involve getting to the fuel pump wiring?

 

[koalar]

I couldn't follow the voltage drop test that you suggested, it seemed to involve getting to the fuel pump wiring?

Put on lead on the battery negative terminal

Put the other on the engine block

Get someone to crank the engine and measure the voltage

As per here

Panda Won't turn over at all after stall - CODE light on | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Hi all! Whilst taking Nephew for driving lesson tonght he stalled it at a roundabout - he tried to restart and nothing...it won't even turn over. Totally out of the blue, mid journey. Locks/ lights work, turn ignition on and dash lights up fine, but the CODE light flashes a few times then...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Paul Jaggard]

Just done that, read about 0 .1v but of course, the engine is starting properly now!

 

[Paul Jaggard]

I hate intermittent faults!

 

[koalar]

Just done that, read about 0 .1v but of course, the engine is starting properly now!

Yep only any good if it tested as its fails

I would make a small bet its connect to the recent work

To test the positive side is more of a pain

One lead on the stater post and the other on the battery positive terminal, unfortunately the stater post is under the car and the cover has to come off

 

[Paul Jaggard]

At least I've got it up on the ramp...but how to stop it working, while it is there!
are we talking trying to start it while probing the solenoid connection? Is it possible to get to it while the main leads ore connected?
If it is, would it do any harm to switch the ignition on, then run a 12v +ve lead to that probe?
I couldn't get it not to work on the bench. If it then started, that would only leave the wiring from the ignition switch, to the solenoid (or the switch itself.

 

[Paul Jaggard]

You are being so patient with me, Thank you.

 

[koalar]

You are being so patient with me, Thank you.

There not much you can test when it's working

The battery looks really good so charging isn't the issue either

Looking at the last video at 3 seconds the rev drops to zero and the engine check light stays on

 

[Paul Jaggard]

The engine check light is probably coming on because of the long-standing EGR fault. I cleared it recently.

 

[koalar]

Listening to the video again but at half speed even though it starts it's still not right

Instead of going

Weer weeer weeer weeer

It goes

Weer weer pause weer weer pause

With a clunk thrown in probably the gear being thrown out

I think as way forward it prudent to remove the starter motor and inspect everything, seeing it's just been off

It is slightly award it is possible to not locate the starter properly

There are other way to approach the problem such as adding a bulb into the solenoid circuit and seeing if stays lite while cranking


Here me testing mine, not a great video as the light is behind the test light, in reality the bulb is bright

There is a conviniant connector next to the battery

 

[koalar]

Just done that, read about 0 .1v but of course, the engine is starting properly now!

Brilliant well with limit

 

[Paul Jaggard]

I listened to it at half speed, and assumed that it was just a low power starter hitting varying piston compression points.

 

[koalar]

I listened to it at half speed, and assumed that it was just a low power starter hitting varying piston compression points.

They should be equally spaced, you can hear if say there is a bent valve as one would be slightly quicker

You have 10,5V at the battery while cranking, which is good


Yours gives a fast
Weeer weer then a pause then a fast weer weer then a pause you can see roughly 150 RPM on the rev drop to zero and back to 150 RPM

My flat battery

Each weer gets slightly longer

Below 6v so the body computer has to reboot and a delay in the rev counter

 

[Paul Jaggard]

I can't get it to not start this morning!
I'm thinking that I will shine an infra-red bulb onto the starter, to warm it up, and see if this affects the starting ability.

With regard to the rear engine mounting, dog bone, the front joint looks complete, the back joint, I can see through. Is there a bit completely missing?