Panda Mr & Mrs Blu's Panda 100hp

[blu73]

Well it's January again, may as well check-in on this here thread again.

Quick look at previous post, yep I swapped a rear wheel speed sensor, that sorted that issue.

It's had a couple of new tyres since I last posted, stuck with Uniroyals, rainsport5 this time. Erm... It passed an MOT.

More recently I've had rear beam woes, it's not broken broken yet but one cup has sagged slightly. It's probably repairable but I've gone ahead and got a new 500 rear beam. Made a start today, basically got everything off ready to drop the beam. Obviously the brake lines were seized so new hardlines required now. Gone ahead and ordered the 4 flexi lines for the rear as well and new rear coil springs as they also look properly on their last legs. Oh and ordered some polyurethane top bushes for the rear shocks.

Anyhow, here's a pic from last wash of 2020


Here's a quick snap from earlier


And how I left it today with bricks holding the beam up lol

 

[A3jeroen]

How are the rainsport 5's compared to the 3's?

gr J

 

[koalar]

Never had to do a phonic reset ever on any of my cars or cars I've worked on so I'm gonna say no it doesnt need that - afterall once done as far as the ecu is concerned nothing has changed, cause it hasnt lol

that pic is teeny tiny, think you got right one but here is a better pic
View attachment 206782

correct

unlike earlier Fiats the Panda self learns


its not unknown for the cam sensor to be left off. When reconnected it throws an error code. If you leave the battery off and then just start the car and let it idle for a few minutes is enough

comes up quite regularly that a phonic reset has fixed a engine light at High revs. But when asked it turns out it was not fixed by themselves but at a garage

if further proof is needed that it self learns there is an incorrect picture of timing the Panda on the internet. Apart from poor performance and economy it runs fine with no phonic reset or error codes because the battery been off.

 

[koalar]

yet but one cup has sagged slightly

You do know the cups aren't parallel from factory. Obviously if its rotten its scrap


changing to a wider 500 axle will increase understeer in the dry.


Insurance company will need to be informed

 

[DaveMcT]

The 500 axle will not work on a 100HP. Pattern 169 Panda axles are about £125.

 

[blu73]

A3jeroen
Rainsport 3 vs 5... much the same really, sidewall feels a bit stiffer but overall i dont think they feel much different from each other, i have only driven it in the wet and ice so far mind.

koalar
my beam isnt broken yet, yes i know the cups aren't totally level. Its mega crusty and i'm convinced it has moved on passenger side since last time i looked the car over (at the MOT) perhaps i'm overly paranoid about it but its my wifes car and the car my daughter gets taken places in when she goes out so just replacing it to be completely happy its 100%. Either way i've been thinking about refurbing or replacing it for a while.

DaveMcT
Thats just wrong, its not the same as the 100hp rear beam no, but neither is a non-100hp rear beam.
The normal panda axle is not as wide as the 100hp one, the ends are different as for drums not discs.
The 500 one is wider than the 100hp one but does have discs, the only change required to fit it up is the wheel speed sensor fits in a different place to on the panda. Therefore you can either drill a hole/cut a slot or you could use 500 rear hubs and then it'' all just bolt up.

normal panda rear track is 1357mm (-10mm compared with 100hp)
100hp rear track is 1367mm
500 rear track is 1407mm (+40mm compared with 100hp)

Please don't think i haven't thought about this and put in the reading cause i have. And the options are
A) refurb the existing beam which i don't want to do cause its just too rusty imo
B) fit a panda axle, lose track width that could be fixed with spacers but lose rear discs which clearly is a silly idea and miles more expensive due to having to buy more parts, hubs, drums etc.
C) Fit the wider 500 beam
D) Source a genuine beam from fiat (mega £££££s)

The 500 one just makes most sense to me, I'll space the front wheels a bit as well, again i know this isnt the same as keep the front and rear track completely factory but so long as the front is still wider than the back it'll drive well enough, tis not a race car. Ive spoken to several people who have done the same cause of rusty 100hp beam. A new beam from fiat is pretty much the value of the car and although this might be considered the best option i just ain't made of money

Think I have everything in now to crack on, just waiting for a break in the snow now really.

 

[A3jeroen]

Thx!

gr J

 

[koalar]

A3jeroen
Rainsport 3 vs 5... much the same really, sidewall feels a bit stiffer but overall i dont think they feel much different from each other, i have only driven it in the wet and ice so far mind.

koalar
my beam isnt broken yet, yes i know the cups aren't totally level. Its mega crusty and i'm convinced it has moved on passenger side since last time i looked the car over (at the MOT) perhaps i'm overly paranoid about it but its my wifes car and the car my daughter gets taken places in when she goes out so just replacing it to be completely happy its 100%. Either way i've been thinking about refurbing or replacing it for a while.

DaveMcT
Thats just wrong, its not the same as the 100hp rear beam no, but neither is a non-100hp rear beam.
The normal panda axle is not as wide as the 100hp one, the ends are different as for drums not discs.
The 500 one is wider than the 100hp one but does have discs, the only change required to fit it up is the wheel speed sensor fits in a different place to on the panda. Therefore you can either drill a hole/cut a slot or you could use 500 rear hubs and then it'' all just bolt up.

normal panda rear track is 1357mm (-10mm compared with 100hp)
100hp rear track is 1367mm
500 rear track is 1407mm (+40mm compared with 100hp)

Please don't think i haven't thought about this and put in the reading cause i have. And the options are
A) refurb the existing beam which i don't want to do cause its just too rusty imo
B) fit a panda axle, lose track width that could be fixed with spacers but lose rear discs which clearly is a silly idea and miles more expensive due to having to buy more parts, hubs, drums etc.
C) Fit the wider 500 beam
D) Source a genuine beam from fiat (mega £££££s)

The 500 one just makes most sense to me, I'll space the front wheels a bit as well, again i know this isnt the same as keep the front and rear track completely factory but so long as the front is still wider than the back it'll drive well enough, tis not a race car. Ive spoken to several people who have done the same cause of rusty 100hp beam. A new beam from fiat is pretty much the value of the car and although this might be considered the best option i just ain't made of money

Think I have everything in now to crack on, just waiting for a break in the snow now really.

have you measured flange to flange

as far as I know the centre of the rear crosmember, axle, subframe or whatever you call it are the same. And any difference in track are due to the hubs and wheel offset


certainly the the disk diesel and standard drum are the same. I haven't measured the 100hp but seeing as the front is standard arms except the bushes I would very much doubt fiat would push the rear wheels further out increasing understeer.


below is the fittment list for the axle minus the hubs. Although this is taken from an ebay listing which may or may not be correct

 

[koalar]

or

https://www.eurosubframes.com/products/fiat-panda-rear-axle-2003-2012-50705127




and listed as fitting here


https://www.bredapartscompany.nl/subframe-voor-fiat-panda-oem-nummers-51856917-5070.html

 

[DaveMcT]

I have replaced a 1.2 rear axle with a 500 ARB axle and 500 road springs. The car rides and handles much better. If there is more understeer, it's entirely because the car corners so much better. The 500 axle is 25mm wider at each side. There is ample space for the 155 R13s and 165 R14 would be ok. There is not enough space for 100HP 195-R15 which fill the arches on the original axle.

The difference in track is entirely due to the stub axle brackets. The 169 stub axel mounts in-line with the swing arm. The 500 mounts jut out 25mm at each side. Dimensionally, everything else is the same. Due to the ARB, 169 springs are too hard for the 500 axle. You will need the 500 springs with rubber bushes top and bottom.

I removed the 100HP axle and had it grit blasted and zinc metal sprayed (overkill but cheap at £80). The difference to the 1.2 axle is different stub axles with mounts for discs rather than drums. The stubs bolt on with four high tensile studs.

 

[DaveMcT]

HEL braided line make sense on the 100HP rear axle. One line each side runs from the underbody bracket through to the brake. HEL supply a range of grommets to protect the line.

I used a banjo bolt at the caliper but it a male end fitting also works.

 

[blu73]

Well for some reason got no notification there was replies here.
I've not measured yet, will do. But all my reading basically agrees with what davemct says and just looking at them also confirms it's all same bit the mounting plates are further out.
Also the 500 stub axle has the wheel speed sensor in different place so I've cut a slot for it, but could use 500 ones instead

Springs wise, I wasn't aware panda springs don't fit 500 beam, and my research suggests they do fit. Anyhow I have the original springs, new 100hp springs and new 500A springs in my stash so I'm sure I can figure out a setup that works.

Current situ, beams on car, nothings tightened up. One complete hub caliper assembly on, the other side one stud came out with the nut and another did same but stripped the thread as well. So waiting on some new studs atm.
I've got all new flexis, just rubber replacements. I've made the little bits of hardline the go along the arm either side.
All of the unions were seized on the pipes and I cut them off.
Plan was to just reflare them but my crappy tool isn't man enough for the factory steel lines lol - so I think I'm just gonna run new lines to the next joins (which I have cracked loose and they came off easy).
Just taking forever to do stuff like I always do.

Not alot of pics taken, it's been very cold.
But here's new beam, I was cutting slots for wheel speed sensors here.


The stud that stopped play


Arts and crafts

 

[DaveMcT]

Ordinary 500 springs work on the Panda axle but they are softer and will make the car look low at the back. A rubber buffer on the top and the bottom of the spring raise the ride height to a little below normal but not enough to cause issues. If you want to go higher, additional rubber sheet packing could be put under one end. 1/4" adds a lot more at the wheel spindle.

I dumped the metal and rubber brake pipes from the axle 600mm long (approx) HEL braided hose runs each side from caliper to the chassis bracket with rubber grommets providing protection. Simply done and not excessive cost.

I measured and costed the job to run HEL braided lines all the way back to the ABS pump. My hard lines are all good but the cost to do it is not silly money.

 

[blu73]

Well update....

These arrived.


So cars basically together now, just need to run the brake lines. And obviously nothing is tightened down cause it's still in the air.

Sadly we did not escape the snow so it sits waiting still.

 

[DaveMcT]

The studs have a lot of thread sticking out which rusts. These will strip the threads leaving the nut spinning or risk shearing the stud. After one stripped and spun, I welded all of them to the studs. They came out easily and got replaced with new studs.

I think 10.9 high tensile bolts would be a better option as the threads are protected. Others might not agree.

 

[blu73]

They all just came off with my impact bar them 2, which as you say got to the rusty bit and went tight - one just went tight and immediately came out with the nut on the impact, the other went tight and i tried to work it up and down by hand to get it to come but she did strip before we worked it all the way up. Hey ho, this stuff happens. Bolts is a good idea tbf - but its done now and if anyone ever takes this apart again hopefully its not me I did at least run a die down them all and clean them up and smeared some copper slip on expose threads once i'd torqued them down to give whoever it i somekind of a chance.

 

[DaveMcT]

Fiat have a couple of blind spots. One is long exposed threads that rust badly. The other is open ended bolt holes in aluminium parts. The bottom end of the bolts corrode leaving a ring of aluminium oxide (basically a ceramic) jammed into the threads. If the bolt does come out in one piece, it does the threads no good at all.

It's a shame because a decent coating of anti seize would prevented the problems.

 

[blu73]

yes i've noticed this compared to working on the suzuki - 7 years and touch wood, i've never stripped a thread or had a bolt snap etc on that. I do love my fiats obviously but so often working on them i get frustrated how annoyingly hard something is for no reason really. Theres always something put on a certain way that was obviously easy on a production line but once cars together is a complete nightmare and just a small amount of thought at the design stage could prevent so much of it - so many times your like why have they put the bolt this way round so it cant come out without taking half the car off first and the exposed threads are taking the brunt of the spray etc.

That said, there's thing on the Suzuki that are overly complicated - swapping an alternator looks a hassle, drive shaft right under neath and inlet above, your taking lots off to change that, same for the stat which is easy peasy on every fiat I've ever touched. I think the biggest thing for me when working on the ignis or the panda is it feels like every bolt or nut i take off the panda, the next one is a different size where as most jobs on the ignis everything is same size. bottom shock bolt, axle to arm bolts, arms to car, hub to axle etc etc are all same size, you can drop the whole front and rear suspension off the car almost without having to down tools and get a different spanner. The Alfa i think is the worst car I've had for this, needed almost a complete toolset to drop the subframe, which really could have been all 19 and 13 but you have like female torx, male torx and hex all in different size.. just why!! lol

 

[DaveMcT]

You list the stuff which makes a car company profitable with reliable products or not.

Fiat have got away with it by never (OK, hardly ever) doing major redesigns. Everything evolves so stuff just gets carried over. The downside is that detail issues get multiplied. Those long studs on back axles have been there before the Uno but the extra 1/2 inch serves no purpose. The bottom clamps on front struts are another. The bolts should be reusable, but rarely are because they so often shear (or get cut off) when the nuts get half way loose then seize solid. At least these are easy to replace. Stuff around the gearbox is far more serious try getting them repaired without taking the gearbox to an engineers shop.

As for the Panda steering rack. Goodness help us when that has to be replaced. I think it's an engine out job.

Before the haters kick off - I really like my Panda but I am frustrated by the lack of forethought by Fiat engineers.

 

[blu73]

yes and they are not designed at all with home mechanics in mind. Many things wouldn't seem such a big deal with a lift and gearbox stands and all the stuff in an equipped workshop that when your lying on your back on the cold floor are almost enough to send you over the edge of insanity haha.
I'm also one to moan alot but fiats arent even really that bad, at least they are simple little cars, messing with mercs and jags etc on the drive at home is 10x more frustrating in my experience.