General MOT advisories (suspension)

[plasma99]

Hi,

I had the following advisories from my last MOT:-

• Nearside Front Lower Suspension arm ball joint has slight play (5.3.4 (a) (i))
• Nearside Rear Upper Shock absorbers has a slightly worn bush (5.3.2 (c))
• Offside Rear Upper Shock absorbers has a slightly worn bush (5.3.2 (c))

Can you tell me if a new bush is part of a replacement rear shock absorber or a sperate item? Same with the lower suspension arm ball joint - is that part of a new front lower suspension wishbone arm or a separate item?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jrkitching]

I always like to address any advisories I got from the car's last MOT before putting it in for the next one.

Rear shock absorbers come complete with the bushes.

The front lower balljoint is part of the suspension arm.

A new pair of rear shocks and a new pair of front wishbones will fix all this.

The rear shocks are dead easy; it'll take just a matter of minutes and the bolts don't seem to corrode where it matters. The front wishbones are a bit more awkward, since the front bumper has to come off (a second pair of hands is very useful here), and you'll likely struggle with some rusty fastenings.

 

[plasma99]

Many thanks for the advice. I will definitely give the rear shocks a go. Maybe leave the front wishbones for the garage to change.

 

[jrkitching]

I will definitely give the rear shocks a go. Maybe leave the front wishbones for the garage to change.

Do the rear shocks first and see how you get on.

Then depending on how it goes, you can decide if you want to tackle the front wishbones. If you hit a snag, we'll all be here to help you if you need it.

 

[plasma99]

I successfully changed the rear shocks yesterday and it was very straightforward. However, the more I look into changing the front wishbones, the more I am put off by it. Just wondered if anyone had done it successfully on a near 10 year old car without access to power tools?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I successfully changed the rear shocks yesterday and it was very straightforward. However, the more I look into changing the front wishbones, the more I am put off by it. Just wondered if anyone had done it successfully on a near 10 year old car without access to power tools?

Well done you! Can I just ask, did you leave the bolts slightly slack - maybe half a turn, just enough that they're not fully pinched up - then lower the car to the ground so the suspension is at normal ride height before fully tightening the bottom and top bolts? This is good practice because it stops the rubber being "wound up" which it will be slightly if the bolts are fully tightened with the car off the ground. Doing this stops the rubber being "wound up" when the car is at normal ride height and will prolong the life of the rubber bushings. The bottom bushes are more affected by this than the tops so if you haven't done this it might be worth just slackening the bottom bolts by a turn and retightening them - with the suspension at normal ride height of course.

I'd say that doing front wishbones is very doable without power tools, they just tend to let you do the job more quickly. I used hand tools when I did the front suspension rebuild - shockers, springs, top mounts, etc, etc, on our 2010 Panda when she was about 9 years old and the only problem I had was the two bottom pinch bolts on the struts (which you won't need to touch to do arms) which were rusted in and needed a lot of Plus Gas and "persuading" with twisting and hammering to get out. Of course, on the 500, you've got to remove the front bumper to get at the front bolts, which I didn't have to do on our 169 model Panda and rusted fixings on that may be a problem?

 

[plasma99]

Thanks for the reply. Damm - I didn’t know about the “rubber being wound up” issue. Interestingly, it was not covered on the video I watched which seemed to be a fairly professional production. It advised putting a jack under the suspension arm to ease removing the bolts but then advised removing the jack before tightening the bolts. I had left the jack in place when tightening so guess that is the equivalent of some weight on the wheels? Either way, I’ll loosen off and re tighten with wheels on ground.

I’ll think I’ll give the wishbones a go. I may do a test removal of the bumper first.

 

[jrkitching]

I may do a test removal of the bumper first.

A second pair of hands helps a lot.

You could also put an old duvet on the ground in front of it for it to land on.

Remember that the front tracking will need to be checked after replacing the wishbones.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the reply. Damm - I didn’t know about the “rubber being wound up” issue. Interestingly, it was not covered on the video I watched which seemed to be a fairly professional production. It advised putting a jack under the suspension arm to ease removing the bolts but then advised removing the jack before tightening the bolts. I had left the jack in place when tightening so guess that is the equivalent of some weight on the wheels? Either way, I’ll loosen off and re tighten with wheels on ground.

I've seen so called "professionals" fail to do this simple thing and seen many you tube videos where it's not done either. If you're in a workshop with the car wheel free on a chassis lift it's just too easy to ignore this. Of course anything which makes the job longer is bad news if you're working a bonus scheme!

A second pair of hands helps a lot.

You could also put an old duvet on the ground in front of it for it to land on.

Remember that the front tracking will need to be checked after replacing the wishbones.

I like your idea of using an old duvet. Mrs J was just saying the other day she thought she might buy new ones for us this winter. Note to self: don't let her throw the old ones out!

Yes, the toe needs to be checked. There may be a very small difference in dimensions if the arms are pattern parts (ie, not genuine FIAT) but the difference is likely to be infinitesimal. More likely it may have been adjusted at some time in the past and the setting will alter as the rubber in the bushes wears and "relaxes". It's quite likely it'll need a wee "tweak" with new arms fitted.

 

[jrkitching]

Note to self: don't let her throw the old ones out

Always keep old duvets. They make great dustsheets when painting, too!

 

[vexorg]

You can manage with one person for the lower arms, even taking the bumper off.
The only real annoyance is the support arms to the crash bar that are not normally on most cars. You need to remove them to get into the front bolt. The arms themselves can be a bit of a pain to get n as the bolt insert tends to catch the subframe at a funny angle.

Remember that the lower arm main bolts should be tightened with the weight of the car on the wheels too. Probably more importan than the rear shocks as they'll see more movement.

Probably worth changing the antiroll bar links if in there too, they tend to go more often than the lower arms.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Always keep old duvets. They make great dustsheets when painting, too!

Decorating and especially rubbing down woodwork, is probably my most hated DIY task. possibly only outdone by changing dirty nappies! (Mrs J says she can count on one hand the number of times I did that, Definitely not a "new man" am I?)

 

[John202020]

I’ll think I’ll give the wishbones a go. I may do a test removal of the bumper first

Bumper, first issue getting the Torx bolts loose top and bottom, next the Torx bolt to bumper at the extreme edge both sides could be a real pain, even greater problem the six small screws that hold the trim/liners probably lost their head and stuck fast, I cut a slot in mine with a hacksaw, DONT simply pull the bumper away from the car at each side as shown in some videos, use a torch and screwdriver to tease apart the fixing under the wing each side 3 tangs on each "clip" 2 easy one not.
Lower arms aren't technically difficult removing the bolts could be, you'll need a breaker bar and a good quality socket set ideally a torque wrench
Note front crash bar bolts could be hard to remove but don't over tighten them think the torque figure quite low

 

[plasma99]

And I guess you need that wedged-shaped fork tool to separate the ball joint?

 

[John202020]

And I guess you need that wedged-shaped fork tool to separate the ball joint?

No, there's a pinch bolt that requires replacing then gently prise apart the lower fixing with a screwdriver or cold chisel and it falls out, quality arms come with a new bolt

 

[jrkitching]

Probably worth changing the antiroll bar links if in there too, they tend to go more often than the lower arms

The only part of the job changing the droplinks and changing the wishbones have in common is jacking up the car.

Certainly if there's any doubt about them being worn, I'd agree.

But it's not necessary if they're sound, since changing them is straightforward and doesn't require you to dismantle anything else. The hardest part is getting the nuts undone, but they're easy to cut off if you've got the right tool.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

And I guess you need that wedged-shaped fork tool to separate the ball joint?

No, there's a pinch bolt that requires replacing then gently prise apart the lower fixing with a screwdriver or cold chisel and it falls out, quality arms come with a new bolt

As John says, the pin of the ball joint is secured with a nut and bolt - pinch bolt - which needs to be completely removed before you can separate the ball joint from the arm as the bolt locates in a groove in the pin - you'll see what I mean when you've got it in pieces. Once the pinch bolt is removed you can spread the assembly using a flat screwdriver blade or chisel etc, to lessen the clamping effect on the pin. Don't try to spread it too far though or you might fracture it.

If a ball joint separating tool is needed I wouldn't be reaching for a Pickle fork ball joint tool (wedge type) I really don't like them as they invariably end up damaging the rubber boot on the ball joint. Ok if you're throwing the old one away but useless if reusing. I prefer a scissors type like this:

Lots of videos on you tube as to how to use it.

Having said that most can be separated by intelligent use of a hammer:



It works on the "bar of soap" principle. The ball joint pin is the bar of soap and the two hammers are your hand. Squeeze it and the "soap" pops out! Most of the time joints like this can be separated by hitting on one side only but if very tight the second hammer gives it something to react against. I was taught how to do this within minutes of walking into my first workshop and most mechanics will try it first because it's so quick, only resorting to a splitter tool if this method fails. I'm lucky in that I have an air hammer and it works a treat with a flat faced hammer bit. The combination of vibration and hammer impacts usually knocks them apart in seconds. You apply it to the side of the fixing, like with the hammers in the video.

 

[John202020]

You can buy the parts quite cheaply however if you're keeping the car for a while buy quality parts?

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You can buy the parts quite cheaply however if you're keeping the car for a while buy quality parts?

Pardon our interruption...

I agree. With cheap arms it's very often the rubber bushes which pack in far too soon.

 

[The Panda Nut]

The only part of the job changing the droplinks and changing the wishbones have in common is jacking up the car.

Certainly if there's any doubt about them being worn, I'd agree.

But it's not necessary if they're sound, since changing them is straightforward and doesn't require you to dismantle anything else. The hardest part is getting the nuts undone, but they're easy to cut off if you've got the right tool.

Impact gun seems to shift them easily. First time I did this job my local garage man lent me one. I have now bought one and it was a great investment