General Max speed 60mph !!

[CRJ 127]

Hi All " Petronella " 1994, 999cc CLX

Not had much time to enjoy " Nella " just a few short trips, noticed occasionally when changing from 2nd to 3rd gear a slight hesitation, and a couple of times between 3rd and 4th, so today I managed to get a little more driving time around town, then headed homewards via 15mins on the M66, wanted to give her a run to clear her lungs so to speak, but she wouldn't go past 60mph, although didn't seem to have anything untoward going on, just wondering where to start to diagnose problem, was thinking exhaust looks a bit crusty but not blowing ( that's why I wanted to give her a run on motorway ), or maybe change coil pack, thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Dragon Man]

that sounds like restricted air flow.. is the air filter clean? also check for any kinks in the exhaust pipe.
had the forklift back into fallout and it bent the strange back bit of the exhaust. kinked it bad and restricted the air flow.. gave the identical issue you have.

 

[CRJ 127]

Thx DM, few things to check when home from work ?, gonna take her for another run later, hoping maybe a big fireball of soot comes out the back ?, happened many years ago in a Capri I had recently bought, first time on motorway at night, started chugging and feared the worst, then boom all cleared out, fine after that ?

 

[CRJ 127]

Looking for advice on a running issue, Car runs and accelerates fine in normal mundane use, but if holding onto revs before changing gear, especially second to third, and third to fourth the car hesitates as if its hit a rev limiter and will not pull anymore, worst still and get on the motorway and the same thing happens and she is all done at 60-65mph tops. I have had a few mechanics and auto electricians look at her, she has been on a rolling road and he estimates fault kicks in around 3500-4000rpm, his current thinking points to throttle body fault, any insight or similar experience and solutions would be very welcome.

a: Can you buy a new or refurbished throttle body ( Ricambio, e bay etc )

b: Would and Spi 1108cc unit be the same

Nella is a Panda CLX, 999cc Spi , 1995

She has had new timing belt ( timing also re checked several times ), plugs, rad flush, oil flush, all ready to go apart from this hard to pin down fault

 

[Dragon Man]

is it the ECU type hat has the twin coil packs? it could be a coil pack breaking down. any discolouration to the plugs when you removed them?

have you checked to see if the fuel filter is blocked? pump could be supplying pressure at low RPMS but when the injector is firing loads it may be struggling to keep up with demand.. (i have had this happen in Fallout when i was running it on crappy reclaimed fuel) engine runs fine on the stuff, its just all the sediment gets pickled up and taken to the filter where it eventually blocks.

all i can suggest is check for signs of a cylinder not burning right, that would lead to a spark failure on that cylinder. with it being SPI you can rule out the injector at fault then.

theres got to be a sign somewhere.

can you post up or send me a picture (or a few) of your engine, without the air box on
also of the ECU?

 

[CRJ 127]

Hi John, thx for your prompt response, plugs had normal signs of usage and I only changed them as advised as a first step from someone else, Nella still at garage but fortunately got a decent shot beforehand, as I had noticed temp sensor spade plug was broken, now fixed, also bracket that airbox fixes too was prized upwards, causing poor seal between gasket and airbox, now sitting correctly, thinking I may pick her up tmz and fit new coil pack and see where I go from there. Will double check with auto electrician about fuel pump, as he had removed inspection plate not sure how far he went either just checking electrical signals or removed to check filter, will report back as soon as ?

 

[Dragon Man]

ok that temp sensor has nothing to do with the ECU on this engine.. its purely for the temp gauge on the dash.

(ecu takes temp readings from 2 sensors. one is on the right side of the intake manifold for coolant temp, the other is built into the throttle body as an intake air temp sensor)

should not be a temp issue if it does it hot or cold..

ok also under the little plastic cover just in front of the battery you should have 2 blue or pinky purple relays.. try swapping them around. one is the fuel pump relay and the other is a relay for the injector system.
they are just standard relays, you can if you want you can swap them out for the heated rear window and headlight relay on the fuse box.. just for testing. (should be the 2 outer relays)

do you ever find that when you crank the engine, the injector light stays on for a short while before going out?
that can indicate a main earth cable fault... (from engine to chassis)
you also have a main earthing cable for all of the engines sensors on the back of the engine block. i have seen that fail before.. well wires going onto it.

these ECUs do not have a "limp mode" coded into them, however it would be interesting to get a live data readout when the fault is happening.

oh almost forgot. make sure that your crank sensor is lined up good. seen it where iron filings get stuck to it which causes interesting issues (i work in a scrap yard.. i have to clean mine often or i get running and starting issues)

also check and see if that map sensor's vacuum pipe is good (behind the 2 relays under the plastic cover... in front of the battery). the rubber 90 degree bends often split and you dont notice it as they always do it on the bottom or behind the throttle body.

another thing you can do is clean the fuse blades on the "Service" fuse seen that corrode causing voltage drop on the ECU

should keep you busy for a while heh

 

[CRJ 127]

Ha ha only just seen your last post been working weekend, CPC course this morning, youngest daughters birthday today etc.
Plenty of others options to go at there !! , just a quick update, asked Ken at Rally Equipe to change coil packs and remove back box, just to rule them out of the equation, before I find and replace throttle body, will speak to him on Monday afternoon to see where we are upto , at the back of my mind it still seems as tho it points towards timing being out, but as its been double checked, just don't know ……….

 

[Dragon Man]

oh also check theres no iron filings around the crank sensor (on the alternator belt pulley) that can mess up readings

 

[CRJ 127]

Hi John, had both coil packs changed, no difference, Ken at Rally Equipe had her on rolling road when I was there a few days ago, and demonstrated once she got above 4000 rpm, the bhp on the other dial just dropped off, he is struggling to find a solution at the moment. Going to visit shortly to see where he is up to and suggest checking the fuel filter, is it attached to the fuel pump in the tank, or is it external ?, thx

 

[Dragon Man]

hmm yes, i replied to your facebook message. ill post it here for future reference:

There's a mesh its on the fuel strainer in the tank.. it could be that.. could also replace the fuel pump with one out of another Fiat car of the same age.. maybe with age its not delivering the pressure.

 

[panda1408]

Have you checked that the exhaust or catalytic converter isn't blocked?

 

[Dragon Man]

yeah, does the engine hit the rev limiter if you pin it? (please only do that to a up to temp engine)

 

[CRJ 127]

Panda1408, The mechanic has run the car with back box removed ( no change ), and while he still has other options he didn't want to remove the manifold or rest of the system just yet, is there a method to test for blockage apart from removing them ?

 

[CRJ 127]

yeah, does the engine hit the rev limiter if you pin it? (please only do that to a up to temp engine)

Not sure ( is pin it, same thing as flooring it ), I remember from last week on the rolling road that, once she got just above 4,000rpm, the bhp just dropped off, and if he continued to hold rev's there was a little bit backfiring, presume that may have been when rev limit was reached, although I didnt notice rpm when it did.

Called in today and he had tried a replacement ecu, no change exact same symptoms, obviously i'm letting him run through his options/process of elimination, think he feels next option is swapping throttle body. Think he is enjoying ?, the challenge , if all else fails in a few weeks, I will have to arrange to drive down to your neck of the woods and get the issue resolved

Something else I knew about, but he brought up/noticed driver side cv joint noisy, where would be best to get hold of one, he has tried a few local motor factors with no joy, would Ricambio be the place to order or ebay ?

p.s. looks like your up to your neck in Iveco Camper Resto Project mode at the mo, good luck with that

 

[Dragon Man]

hmm interesting.. backfiring you say. well the last time i come across that it was a valve spring that had cracked(not on a fiat engine though). the valve still closed but the spring was not as powerful so at higher rpm the valve would not close fast enough and cause combustion through the intake. thankfully it never damaged the engine.

maybe worth looking into? its not a huge job on a panda but it does involve removing the cam cover and manually pressing down the valves.. the one thats more easy to press down is the one with the damaged spring.

hope this helps... :/

 

[panda1408]

Panda1408, The mechanic has run the car with back box removed ( no change ), and while he still has other options he didn't want to remove the manifold or rest of the system just yet, is there a method to test for blockage apart from removing them ?

Drill a hole in the exhaust before the cat and knock in a piece of brake pipe, fit a pressure guage, there should be little to no pressure if the cat is flowing freely.

 

[CRJ 127]

Quick update, replacement throttle body on, no change , Ken is going to take her for a run with a fuel pressure gauge on to see if that shows up any symptoms

 

[CRJ 127]

Fuel pressure behaving correctly and consistently, picking Nella up Monday afternoon, Ken stumped although thinks it points to some sort of electrical issue, and probably needs some dedicated Fiat knowledge, going to contact Brian Stignant after Christmas period as he is close by, and slowly work my way round the country and offers of help from Freddy Harris and John Briggs , until these issues can be resolved

 

[Dragon Man]

if the worst comes to the worst, i am pretty sure i have a full replacement loom, sensors, and ECU system i can swap bits from. ok its for a MPI engine but i can soon play with it to do SPi