Technical Jumpy and jerky running

[oldhammer]

Do you happen to know what to do with regards to the injectors and coil?

^ unplug crank sensor,

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Do you happen to know what to do with regards to the injectors and coil?

^ unplug crank sensor,

That will stop fuel injectors from squirting fuel out and also sparks from flying?

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Right..another twist in my problem searching today!

The eml came on this morning, read the code and its p1135 again!! Pre heating resistance 1 above catalyser..now I replaced the lambda here and thought the problem had been fixed as the code stayed off (even tho car was still running lumpy),


But now it's back, does this suggest cat failure to you guys? homeward I know you had issues like this, could I ask for your opinion as to what you think?

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

 

[homeward]

But now it's back, does this suggest cat failure to you guys? homeward I know you had issues like this, could I ask for your opinion as to what you think?

As it looks like you've got MES(!), can you work out how to do a live reading of the lambdas, once the engine's warmed up?

Top one should spike like crazy; bottom one should stay flat -- with occasional peaks when you blip the throttle, etc..

If they're not doing that, then, yes, you may end up with it being the cat. How many miles has the car done; what year is it (sorry, I know I'm being lazy: but just got out of bed, after an horrendous migraine: so what I laughingly refer to as my brain is even more fuzzy than usual...)?

With mine, P1135 was solved -- sorry to say -- with a new lambda. So what make and price was yours? IIRC, it was from Big Mick (although he recommended a couple of makes to me: and I went, typically, for the most expensive -- and I replaced both...): so it should be fine... -- so I wonder if there's a wiring issue...? Have you tried swapping the lambdas over...? :chin:

Of course, it might not be the lambda or the wiring. I wonder if running rich -- what's your fuel consumption like...? -- could cause a problem...? (This is one for the experts, I'm afraid....)

Good luck! Not so sure I've helped; but a live data reading, and/or swapping the lambdas may give us a clue.... :idea:

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

As it looks like you've got MES(!), can you work out how to do a live reading of the lambdas, once the engine's warmed up?

Top one should spike like crazy; bottom one should stay flat -- with occasional peaks when you blip the throttle, etc..

If they're not doing that, then, yes, you may end up with it being the cat. How many miles has the car done; what year is it (sorry, I know I'm being lazy: but just got out of bed, after an horrendous migraine: so what I laughingly refer to as my brain is even more fuzzy than usual...)?

With mine, P1135 was solved -- sorry to say -- with a new lambda. So what make and price was yours? IIRC, it was from Big Mick (although he recommended a couple of makes to me: and I went, typically, for the most expensive -- and I replaced both...): so it should be fine... -- so I wonder if there's a wiring issue...? Have you tried swapping the lambdas over...? :chin:

Of course, it might not be the lambda or the wiring. I wonder if running rich -- what's your fuel consumption like...? -- could cause a problem...? (This is one for the experts, I'm afraid....)

Good luck! Not so sure I've helped; but a live data reading, and/or swapping the lambdas may give us a clue.... :idea:

I indeed do have full MES, but for some reason I can't see a checkbox that allows me to read each lambda as I want to (hard to explain without it infront of me..on the 8v version I know I could),

car has done 83000 miles and is 2002, was on its original lambdas and cat from the looks of it -- until I recently replaced the pre-cat lambda with one from big mick at Eurocarcare, approx £40-50 (excellent service btw),

I swapped the lambdas over before I changed to a new one, and the code then stayed away, swap them back and the code came back, so I changed the lambda that was throwing up the code

I supsected this too -- ive been paranoid that I have been running rich for a while (although Im not sure if this is because I was getting 50-+ (5) in my old 8v Punto, but I cannot get over 41.3 on this -- averages 38?

Yes you were of help, appreciated!!

 

[homeward]

I indeed do have full MES, but for some reason I can't see a checkbox that allows me to read each lambda as I want to (hard to explain without it infront of me..on the 8v version I know I could),

car has done 83000 miles and is 2002, was on its original lambdas and cat from the looks of it -- until I recently replaced the pre-cat lambda with one from big mick at Eurocarcare, approx £40-50 (excellent service btw),

I swapped the lambdas over before I changed to a new one, and the code then stayed away, swap them back and the code came back, so I changed the lambda that was throwing up the code

I supsected this too -- ive been paranoid that I have been running rich for a while (although Im not sure if this is because I was getting 50-+ (5) in my old 8v Punto, but I cannot get over 41.3 on this -- averages 38?

Yes you were of help, appreciated!!

Can't help with MES: as my notebook is currently at my parents-in-law, with Mrs homeward.

I don't think 38 mpg (unless that's on the display, rather than calculated...) is too bad; but I get quite a bit better. (Mind you, I drive with minimal acceleration and braking: IAM-style....) After a new cat and lambdas, I'm getting mid-40s; but never got much lower than 40 before. I also only use Shell super unleaded (which gives me less pence per mile...). But, if your gut is telling you that you might be running rich, it might also be worth checking that the breather hose is intact -- and either not leaking fumes out, that you're subconsciously smelling; or letting air in, that's causing the fuelling to get a bit iffy....

I think finding someone who knows their way around MES is the next step. Ziggy and a1ant come to mind; as does oldhammer.... :worship:

BTW, my gut still says cat -- as that's the mileage mine started acting up. Just the odd code, at first; then more frequently; but, I'm afraid, no jumpiness or jerkiness.... :chin:

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Can't help with MES: as my notebook is currently at my parents-in-law, with Mrs homeward.

I don't think 38 mpg (unless that's on the display, rather than calculated...) is too bad; but I get quite a bit better. (Mind you, I drive with minimal acceleration and braking: IAM-style....) After a new cat and lambdas, I'm getting mid-40s; but never got much lower than 40 before. I also only use Shell super unleaded (which gives me less pence per mile...). But, if your gut is telling you that you might be running rich, it might also be worth checking that the breather hose is intact -- and either not leaking fumes out, that you're subconsciously smelling; or letting air in, that's causing the fuelling to get a bit iffy....

I think finding someone who knows their way around MES is the next step. Ziggy and a1ant come to mind; as does oldhammer.... :worship:

BTW, my gut still says cat -- as that's the mileage mine started acting up. Just the odd code, at first; then more frequently; but, I'm afraid, no jumpiness or jerkiness.... :chin:

38 is the displayed mpg - I worked it out manually a couple weeks ago and it was (if I remember correctly) approx 30ish on a long jounrey, although quite stop, start -- I also use shell v-power nitro, couple pence more

I replaced the breather hose around a month ago as the old one was destroyed to say the least!

Yeah that would be helpful! My gut instinct also says the cat (I had a hunch before I changed the lambda even), who knows maybe the jumpiness is unrelated to this issue...its all a mystery!

 

[oldhammer]

If cat is goosed it will hold back...choke it up..
I once split the Mani cat on a Nissan Micra...and had a peeek at the internals with the engine running...them mofo's burn hottter than the sun...

Normally sometimes when there failing or being ovefueld you can see the out side of the cat
Glowing...

Worth a look in the dark.

Once they is cooked they is cooked...off with them and replace...
Don't throw old ones away... they is still got a refund on em. Like old Barr bottles anyone remember them's

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

If cat is goosed it will hold back...choke it up..
I once split the Mani cat on a Nissan Micra...and had a peeek at the internals with the engine running...them mofo's burn hottter than the sun...

Normally sometimes when there failing or being ovefueld you can see the out side of the cat
Glowing...

Worth a look in the dark.

Once they is cooked they is cooked...off with them and replace...
Don't throw old ones away... they is still got a refund on em. Like old Barr bottles anyone remember them's

Hmm..I'm gonna have to investigate this issue further as well then (added to the list), as I don't want to be buying lambdas and cats when they might be fine

I will have a play on MES soon, and try see anything but I'm sure there isn't anything that directly relates to this issue..

Thanks

 

[homeward]

Got Mrs h to boot up the netbook. :worship:

Once you've selected the right ECU (see below), and gone into the engine section, you should see an "F4 Parameters" tab. On this should be, about halfway down, a whole series of Lambda entries for you to tick the boxes of. You might have to fiddle about: but the pre- and post-cat are the ones you need. (D'oh.) I'm told that there are no units in the right-hand column for status -- when I would have expected volts. But this might do. (Admittedly, it's in simulation mode; and maybe not with the right ECU selected... -- but this might be a good place to start....) Couldn't work out how to turn this into the "F5 Graph" readings, though....

Does this help? Or did you know this already...?

PS: I think you knew -- as Mrs h also can't find a second lambda: but she did report getting an invalid ISO warning on ECU selection....

PPS: Just worked out that the graph section already takes the parameters selected on the other tab. Still can't find the second lambda, though -- even though MES tells us that there are two....

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Got Mrs h to boot up the netbook. :worship:

Once you've selected the right ECU (see below), and gone into the engine section, you should see an "F5 Graph" tab. On this should be, about halfway down, a whole series of Lambda entries for you to tick the boxes of. You might have to fiddle about: but the pre- and post-cat are the ones you need. (D'oh.) I'm told that there are no units in the right-hand column for status -- when I would have expected volts. But this might do. (Admittedly, it's in simulation mode; and maybe not with the right ECU selected... -- but this might be a good place to start....)

Does this help? Or did you know this already...?

To be honest I did know this already as I have attempted many many times to get numerical values, but as you have said it does not give voltages, only closed loop and open loop readings (I remember it gave voltage readings in the 8v ecu version..),

To be totally honest I have messed with these values and I do not know what exactly they should be, whereas I would understand if they were voltages, as I'm aware of the patterns and frequency of which they should be,

Unfortunately I don't have my laptop with me either and will not be able to see until tomorrow...

You wouldnt happen to know if the closed loop and open loop are meant to act the same as the voltages fluctuating (although I think that the closed and open only suggest when the lambda is working and needed by the ecu),

Hmm this could get very confusing very easily

Thanks!

 

[homeward]

You wouldnt happen to know if the closed loop and open loop are meant to act the same as the voltages fluctuating (although I think that the closed and open only suggest when the lambda is working and needed by the ecu),

This piccy...



...shows that your understanding is correct. Closed loop is when the engine is sufficiently warm to start 'listening' to the lambdas.

I've now got the missus installing the latest version (2.1) of MES -- to see if that sheds any light. But it's past her bedtime: so you may have to wait for enlightenment...!

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

This piccy...



...shows that your understanding is correct. Closed loop is when the engine is sufficiently warm to start 'listening' to the lambdas.

I've now got the missus installing the latest version (2.1) of MES -- to see if that sheds any light. But it's past her bedtime: so you may have to wait for enlightenment...!

I thought so, I will need to take an even closer look when I get on it next

It's no worry! Don't want to be hassling Mr and Mrs Homeward

But seriously it's fine, there's no rush (or even any need to help me at all )

I've not even installed the newest version yet, still running 2.0

Cheers!!

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Tried numerous times to get a understandable reading on MES but without voltage readings I'm a bit unsure...

Sooo I have recorded a video of the readings to see if any of you can tell me if they look normal or not (although it is only a short clip),

[ame]http://youtu.be/_UMO56Kb46c[/ame]

You can hear when I rev the car to about 2500 - 3000 rpm every so often, engine was fully up to temp as seen aswell,

Any help appreciated, homeward, this look normal?

Thanks.


Ps: does the air intake in mbar look normal? Not sure what the readings should be.

 

[homeward]

Tried numerous times to get a understandable reading on MES but without voltage readings I'm a bit unsure...

Any help appreciated, homeward, this look normal?

Although neither of us have worked out a way of displaying voltages -- so I'm also "a bit unsure"... -- there seems to be too much activity from the post-cat lambda: and it seems to be shadowing the pre-cat one.

If this were a voltage reading -- and now I've got the netbook back, I still can't find a way of displaying voltages in MES (and therefore feel like I'm missing something obvious -- Ziggy122 and oldhammer...?) -- I'd say the cat was on its way out; but I used to get P0420 errors all the time when mine was going (principally because the post-cat lambda had too much work to do...). It's not a cheap gamble to replace the manicat though (£100-plus; as well as the time it takes...).

Ps: does the air intake in mbar look normal? Not sure what the readings should be.

Neither am I. If I get the chance, over the weekend, I shall plug in MES, and see what I can find....

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

Although neither of us have worked out a way of displaying voltages -- so I'm also "a bit unsure"... -- there seems to be too much activity from the post-cat lambda: and it seems to be shadowing the pre-cat one.

If this were a voltage reading -- and now I've got the netbook back, I still can't find a way of displaying voltages in MES (and therefore feel like I'm missing something obvious -- Ziggy122 and oldhammer...?) -- I'd say the cat was on its way out; but I used to get P0420 errors all the time when mine was going (principally because the post-cat lambda had too much work to do...). It's not a cheap gamble to replace the manicat though (£100-plus; as well as the time it takes...).



Neither am I. If I get the chance, over the weekend, I shall plug in MES, and see what I can find....

I'm almost certain that there is no way to display voltages for the 16v now, I can't see where there would be tbh

I'm also consistently getting the code P1135 after every drive I take the car on at similar times..

Surely if there is one thing I have done and that is rule out the pre-cat lambda which is brand new..suppose that's not much help considering the error code is pointing towards the pre cat lambda again

I think it's peculiar the values are changing together, and I know the new lambda is ok, MES tells me the lambdas are fine...Hmm you might be right in thinking the cat..

Thanks.

 

[Ziggy122]

i know you can get the 8v todo a Pre and post cat voltage/scope output

you need to be connected up - and only select Precat and post cat voltages (not preheater status btw)
Tick the boxes on parameters so its scanning/updating

You can then need to click on the graph and start it

It'll then start to plot the readings as they come

The Pre should be going High low high low high low
Post should gently sweep around 0.3v to 0.8v ish shouldnt bounce like pre does

Ziggy

 

[KRaikkonenNo1]

i know you can get the 8v todo a Pre and post cat voltage/scope output

you need to be connected up - and only select Precat and post cat voltages (not preheater status btw)
Tick the boxes on parameters so its scanning/updating

You can then need to click on the graph and start it

It'll then start to plot the readings as they come

The Pre should be going High low high low high low
Post should gently sweep around 0.3v to 0.8v ish shouldnt bounce like pre does

Ziggy

I know like you said that I can do that in 8v but on the 16v ecu you cannot select voltages - also I don't usually have the heaters set on, just for the video I did that to show their readings,

Also with just the pre and post cat boxes ticked, it will not plot on the graph like other values do (numerical values) , therefore it doesn't give me a graph reading

The fact it doesn't give voltages makes it slightly more confusing, also mine seem to be active very similar to each other - up down up down together,

I can simulate the 8v ecu and I can see the readings that I need for my 16v but these aren't actually available on the 16v,

Thanks.

 

[homeward]

I'm almost certain that there is no way to display voltages for the 16v now, I can't see where there would be tbh

I wonder if it's worth emailing yani to ask him about this (and/or to add the same functionality that the 8v has...) -- it does seem odd that it's missing....