Technical Is my engine a mix ?

[Flock]

I'm having trouble identifing my engine. It's a 1965 F (8 bulloni) and the engine ID states 110F-000. But, when I bought it it was sold as 600 (594?) cc.
It has an AC altenator, imb28 carburator, and a synchro gearbox. Starter is electric and on top of the gearbox (not on the side.)

I want to learn how to maintain my own engine, but without knowing what it exactly is that's kind of hard. For example, what is the correct valve clearance for this engine?

 

[smart51]

The engine number shows that the crank case is from a 500cc engine. It might have had bigger pistons and barrels fitted to make it 594cc. The carburettor and alternator are easily replicable so probably have been. If the starter is on the top, then you have a 500 bell housing. These can be fitted to synchro boxes, so isn't much of a clue.

I don't know of a way of telling what the diameter of the pistons are without removing the head. That's a bit drastic just to find out the cc of the engine. Others may know of an external tell tale. You could unbolt the carburettor and lift it up so you can measure the diameter of the hole in the cylinder head (and of the Bakelite block it sits on). You might need a new gasket if you do that. A 594cc or 652cc head has a bigger port that the carb sits over. If you have the bigger hole, it is a clue that it might have been converted. If it doesn't it's a clue that it hasn't been done, or not done well.

 

[Flock]

Thanks for the reply!

Does it make a difference for setting the valve clearance, of can I just use .15mm for both intake and outtake.

 

[Goldnrust]

Your engine has got a fair number of upgrades visible there. On top of the ones you’ve mentioned, you’ve also also got a wasted spark coil set up and an aftermarket exhaust. Presuming you’ve not been lied to, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that it could have had the crank cases machined and some 595cc barrels and pistons fitted.

The 500cc crank cases need to be bored out to fit 595cc barrels, so one option to identify it, that is less drastic than taking the head of, could be to drop the oil and remove the sump. You could then possibly see the signs of machining, or even if you’re feeling nimble fingered you could try measuring the bore diameter from below?

I’m happy to be corrected, I’m no expert on these engine yet, but if it was my engine, then as it’s based on 500cc crank cases I’d be tempted to start with the 0.15mm standard 500cc valve clearance?

 

[smart51]

Thanks for the reply!

Does it make a difference for setting the valve clearance, of can I just use .15mm for both intake and outtake.

I don't know to be honest.

 

[Flock]

I really appreciate all the help and answers. To be honest, this is my first oldtimer, and I bought it without any previous knowledge of the 500 or car maintenance ( i bring my daily driver to the garage, pay the bill and that's it.) But with the 500 I want to do things myself and need to learn a lot. I told my wife when i bought it.....you can do everything yourselve on this car! Well....that was a bit optimistic but i'm getting there!

The car was advertised as made more reliable. The electric start, ac alternater, double coil and synchro gearbox. But it was also advertised as having 600cc and electric ignition. Now I don't know if these last 2 are correct. From what I think (google and trying to understand) the ignition is standard (see attached pics) and the 600cc is not clear. I'm trying to contact the seller (oldtimer dealer) but he is abroad a lot and he hasn't answered me yet to confirm things.

Which raises my next question: do I need to set timing and if so, how on my setup? I can only find videos with the distributor which isn't present on my car.

 

[smart51]

You have a wasted spark ignition. I guess that's what the seller meant by double coil. It it doesn't have electronic ignition though. You've just posted a picture of a distributor. Wasted spark means it fires both spark plugs at the same time. In one cylinder it will be the end of the compression stroke and the other the end of the exhaust stroke. It means that it is (slightly) easier to set the timing.

You can't beat learning while doing and the 500 is a mechanically simple car. Take your time and have fun. And buy a Haynes manual.

 

[Flock]

Sorry for my mixup (english is not my native language nor is technical car-ish.) What i meant is that I can find video's with the normal red thingie (rotor?) in which is shown how to set it up. (see screenshot for clarification.) Now i don't have that thingie...so I'm not sure how to set it up.

For the 500/600cc part...someone asked me to see if there's 650 stamped on the cylinderhead, but he isn't replying to my question where that stamp should be.

 

[Toshi 975]

It looks to me like the engine compartment is quite tidy and modifications have been well carried out. It would be good if you could post a picture of the top front of the cylinder head.
With your ignition set up you do not need that red thingie which is a rotor arm. You have the simplest type of ignition you can fit to these engines and the distributor does not actually distribute, it only acts as a switch to actuate the spark plugs via the coil. If the engine runs OK I would not worry about the timing just yet but you may want to check the contact breaker points gap within the distributor. In your position with a modified 500 I would get a 500 and a 126 manual which you may be able to download.

 

[smart51]

Sorry for my mixup (english is not my native language nor is technical car-ish.) What i meant is that I can find video's with the normal red thingie (rotor?) in which is shown how to set it up. (see screenshot for clarification.) Now i don't have that thingie...so I'm not sure how to set it up.

For the 500/600cc part...someone asked me to see if there's 650 stamped on the cylinderhead, but he isn't replying to my question where that stamp should be.

View attachment 433155

OK, I see. The red piece in your hand is the rotor. The dual coil means you don't need this. When setting up a normal distributor, you have to align the rotor with number 1 cylinder being at top dead centre. With your engine, you can ignore this step because your spark plugs fire both ways round. After that, setting up is the same.

 

[Flock]

I have the haynes manuals (for the 500 and the 126) but their a bit to technical for me at this point of my learning stage. The car actually runs great, accept for the cold start. After I had my imb28 replaced for a new own (old was faulty) i have trouble starting the car when it has been idle for 12 hours. First attemp it fires up but dies immediatly. Next 3 or 4 attempts it only turns over. Attempt 5 - 8 is slowly comes to life and dies several times and on attemps 9 it fires up and starts running. Rest of the day, even if it sits for several hours on the drive way it immediatly starts up. With the old (leaking) imb28 it fired up on the first attempt without problems.

Once i get it going it's rock solid. It runs great, never let me down.

I checked the fuelpump, which is in good working order. Norhing else changed on the car. So it's either the carb itself (to complicated for me to check) of the valve clearance (which some people told me to check and adjust if needed. ) So basicly, i'm trying to convince myself that YES I CAN do that...and let my wife be proud of me.

 

[smart51]

I have the haynes manuals (for the 500 and the 126) but their a bit to technical for me at this point of my learning stage. The car actually runs great, accept for the cold start. After I had my imb28 replaced for a new own (old was faulty) i have trouble starting the car when it has been idle for 12 hours. First attemp it fires up but dies immediatly. Next 3 or 4 attempts it only turns over. Attempt 5 - 8 is slowly comes to life and dies several times and on attemps 9 it fires up and starts running. Rest of the day, even if it sits for several hours on the drive way it immediatly starts up. With the old (leaking) imb28 it fired up on the first attempt without problems.

Once i get it going it's rock solid. It runs great, never let me down.

I checked the fuelpump, which is in good working order. Norhing else changed on the car. So it's either the carb itself (to complicated for me to check) of the valve clearance (which some people told me to check and adjust if needed. ) So basicly, i'm trying to convince myself that YES I CAN do that...and let my wife be proud of me.

First, are you using the choke to do a cold start? If not, it will probably help.

Have you checked the choke lever is adjusted properly? With the choke lever all the way up, the choke arm on the carburettor should be all the way forwards. If you can push the arm further, you need to adjust the cable. With the choke lever all the way down, the choke arm on the carburettor should be all the way backwards. Again, if you can move the arm further back with your fingers, you need to adjust the cable. In cold weather, I need the choke all the way on for it to start.

I had a similar sounding problem a while ago. If the car had been sat overnight, it took a lot of cranking before it would start. Once it had started once, it would start again straight away. The problem was a very slight air leak into the fuel pipe. When the engine was off, air would very slowly leak into the pipe. Eventually, it would break the syphon and all the fuel would drain from the hose back into the tank. Cranking the engine had to prime the pipe again before the engine would start. The solution was to take the pipes off the fuel pump and carburettor and reseat them properly. I swapped the clamps to proper fuel hose clamps so that the hose was kept round when clamping.

 

[smart51]

Valve clearances shouldn't be a problem with a cold engine. They tend to cause problems when the engine is hot. You set the valve clearances when the engine is cold. As the engine heats up, all the parts expand. The push rods expand more than the block, so that the gap you have set goes away. If the valve clearance is too small, the engine will still run when cold. But when it gets hot, the valves don't close fully because the push rod has expanded.

If you're going to check the valve clearances, you might be as well buying a new rocker cover gasket before you start. The old gasket may be damaged when you take the rocker cover off. A hole in the gasket will let oil be sprayed out over the engine bay wall. Ask me how I know

From the sound of it, I'm not sure valve clearances are causing your cold start problems. I'd check the choke and fuel hoses first. If you get your car to start when the engine is cold, and can get it to idle well, what happens if you turn it off and restart it while the engine is still pretty cold? Does it fire up straight away? If it does, that is not valve clearances.

 

[Flock]

If I use the choke on cold start it feels like it makes things worse. I will check tomorrow if the choke lever is setup correct.

Once starten and idling stable i can shut it off and it will start on the first attempt. My guts tell me that it simply needs to refill the fuel lines, so i will also check all connections.

 

[Flock]

So I checked the choke lever, and it is connected the way it should. Tried to start the car, same problems. Tried with choke on and choke off. Even the sligthest use of choke made the car shut off. So to my experience, the only way to get it started after sitting overnight is to crank it several times until it fires, and than use the accelator to give it some revs. Once it had some moderate revs (for about 10 seconds) it runs rough idle for about 10 seconds and than it's ready for the rest of the day.

I found the markings on the cylinderhead. It says KJF330 and something that looks like it was never present or 650 erroded/scratched.

 

[smart51]

The 650 head had the number 650 embossed into the casting like in this picture. It looks like your head is from a 650 but someone has tried to grind the number off it. I wonder if your engine has been modified to 652cc instead of 594cc.

As for your cold starting problems, the choke should make it better, not worse. That could be a clue to what the problem is, but it is not a clue whose meaning I know.

 

[Flock]

Starting will be sorted out without a doubt by the garage who installed the new carb. He immediatly told me it had something to do with the chokes internal parts. In the spring I will sort that out with him when he is going to teach me how to do all the basic maintenance. Untill then the starting is not really a big issue because the 500 is only a good weather stress relief car. It won't be using it much the next months because in the winter a good bottle of red (italian) wine will cope with the stress part.

Regarding the head...i'm in contact with the seller (oldtimer dealer) but he is also not sure. He sells a lot of these cars, so i'm trying to make him remember why it was advertised as 600cc.

 

[Toshi 975]

Looks like you have a 650 cylinder head there which does not necessarily say anything about the piston size. If you had a new carb fitted then it is most likely one of the Spanish made under licence Weber carbs, some of which have caused a few problem, don’t throw your old carb away yet. It is good that you are not in a hurry with the car and I would say make sure you fully understand what and why you are doing any adjustments or maintenance. Don’t be afraid to say that you do not understand anything about the car.

 

[Flock]

Sadly I do not have the old carb anymore. I sold it to someone who referbs them. He told me later it was a toast because the casing had a crack (that was the reason for the fuel leak I had on the baseplate.)

 

[Flock]

I installed a fuel filter ( i'm not going to drive the car with the filter attached like this!!!) to test if fuel drains out of the system overnight. If it is still filled in the morning I can rule out fuel draining back to the tank.