Technical Identifying rusty pipe

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Does it have to be distilled water? Haynes manual doesn't mention anything about distilled water, and saw Scotty Kilmer flushing his Toyota coolant system with just his outside tap.

Flushing through with tap water is how I do it. I then use De-ionised water to mix up a 50/50 mix with the antifreeze concentrate. In fact up here in Edinburgh our tap water is super soft. We get no scaling problems in kettles etc and a lovely soapy foam in the shower. Unlike my daughter down in Wiltshire who has to virtually take a hammer and chisel to her kettle! For many years I just used tap water and have never had a problem (it would be a different story in a hard water area i'm sure). But, getting older and wiser and more of a "worrier" I started using the de-ionised water after seeing it on the shelf one day.

I buy the de-ionised water from Halfords (currently £3.50 for 5 litres and you get a good discount with their Trade Card - if you can get one. This is how it comes:



I particularly like that it reassuringly tells me it's for use in cooling systems:



Someone on our forum was, some time ago, suggesting that de-ionised water is not ideal for this use as it can "leach back" ions from the metal of the engine. I don't know about the risk in this, and have read other accounts elsewhere which say it's not a factor worth worrying about. I have been using it for many years now. It was in my older boy's Fabia, my Cordoba (owned for nearly 19 years, Both our Fiats - Punto and Panda, and I've topped up my younger boy's Astra with it (reminds me that one needs a flush and refill). The Ibiza and Rio are too young to require attention yet, The only one I'm shying away from is the Jazz. It has blue antifreeze but Honda say it's organic technology. This worries me because "blue" antifreeze has always meant to me it's "silicate" whereas "red" is usually OAT (Organic Acid Technology) The two do not mix. As OAT is generally considered to be much superior (and only needs changing every 5 years) I use OAT now a days. So, until I get round to draining flushing and refilling with the "red" stuff, I'll be buying a litre bottle - at an exorbitant price - from the Honda garage for topping up.

As far as the actual antifreeze itself goes I always check the manufacturer's spec and then see if my factor can supply. For many years I have used Comma's products with out any problems as that was the volume brand stocked by my friend at his factors. Now that ill health has sadly caused his business to close down I'm using TradeTEC products as that's what my new supplier stocks:



I've no idea what all the technical bumph at the bottom of the label is but this TradeTEC RED is what his computer recommends and all seems fine so far:



I don't believe in mixing any antifreeze so, as with the FIATs, when changing brand I would always completely flush out and then only top up with the same product. I know most manufacturers say that as long as you stick with the correct spec you can top up with a different brand but it always niggles away at me that there might be a subsequent diminution in the effectiveness of the additives?

 

[DaveMcT]

Distilled water means boiled (or at least evaporated) and condensed. The condensate loses the minerals that will otherwise damage the engine internals up to and including water pump damage.

Water from a dehumidifier is distilled but as air moisture never had any minerals its pretty clean stuff. The very fussy might filter it. Tumble dryer condensate is not quite as good as soap volatiles will carry over but its fine for flushing.

Deionised water is washed past ion exchange crystals which remove Na, OH, C and Cl (etc) ions. The result is ultra pure water that should be absolutely neutral. But its really an overkill for cooling systems because metal ions from the engine will be absorbed into the water. It wont be deionised for very long. Too much of that would not be good for the metal but proper coolant contains corrosion inhibitors to prevent such things happening.

IMO distilled water is plenty good enough. Just be sure that if its water flushed you should drain the flush after the engine has been run to full temperature and install the proper coolant.

Here's a squeaky voice to explain deionised water.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Distilled water means boiled (or at least evaporated) and condensed. The condensate loses the minerals that will otherwise damage the engine internals up to and including water pump damage.

Deionised water is washed past ion exchange crystals which remove Na, OH, C and Cl (etc) ions. The result is ultra pure water that should be absolutely neutral. But its really an overkill for cooling systems because metal ions from the engine will be absorbed into the water. It wont be deionised for very long. Too much of that would not be good for the metal but proper coolant contains corrosion inhibitors to prevent such things happening.

Dave thanks a lot for that. Distilled water is simple and I've known about it for years. De-ionised was a bit more "black magic" so you've educated me considerably there. Seems like distilled water should be the preferred option? However, whereas it used to be on easily available, de-ionised seems to be what's pushed these days. I feel an internet session coming on.

 

[DaveMcT]

Drakelow power station had a full range water treatment plant that took Trent river water and produced dionised. The town mains contained silica so was not usable. Silica could not be removed so built up on turbine blades. So no town mains for us. Anything less than the purest of pure water was would cause a scale buildup inside the boiler tubes. The temperatures and pressures, create an aggressive chemical environment under the scale that actually cracks the water. Hydrogen makes steel go brittle. Any scale - at all inside the tubes is very not good.

We had four 60MW, four 120MW and three 350MW. The eight smaller units were shut down overnight so used a lot of water on startup as the "cold" steam had to be blown to waste.

At full chat, a single 120 MegaWatt coal fired reheat boiler produces 1,000,000 pounds (454,000Kg) of steam at 1600psi (110Bar) and 568 degrees C. One million pounds is 100,000 UK gallons of water per hour evaporated heated blown down the turbine condensed and done all over again. Anything less than the best demin water was just not an option.

The whole plant was capable of evaporating 1.5 mIllion UK gallons of water per hour. With "normal" steam leaks and daily startups you can imagine that water treatment plant had to work pretty hard.

Demin water was not hard to come by.

 

[Theleman]

Yes, Halfords de-ionised / battery top-up water has realistic price bracket, and clearly confirms that it can be used for coolant mixing with antifreeze for cooling system.

But flushing out the system seems OK with tap water.

I was not sure also the difference between de-ionised and distilled water for using coolant mixture, and wondered how the Haynes Manual never mentions anything about it. It just says to mix water with anti freeze for the coolant.

https://www.halfords.com/workshop-t...ump-starters/halfords-battery-top-up-water-5l

 

[DaveMcT]

Perhaps Mr Haynes lived in a soft water area.

 

[Theleman]

Perhaps Mr Haynes lived in a soft water area.

The manual says it had been written by Mr M. Randall, not Mr Haynes. Mr Haynes was just an owner of the company?

I checked the manual again on the filling and mixing coolant with antifreeze. Also the flushing radiator pages, it never mentions about distilled water. It just says "water".

Anyhow I will be using the battery top up water from Hallfords for coolant mixing with antifreeze.

 

[DaveMcT]

The manual says it had been written by Mr M. Randall, not Mr Haynes. Mr Haynes was just an owner of the company?

I checked the manual again on the filling and mixing coolant with antifreeze. Also the flushing radiator pages, it never mentions about distilled water. It just says "water".

Anyhow I will be using the battery top up water from Hallfords for coolant mixing with antifreeze.

Haynes have always said to use "water". But I suspect the text for that bit has not changed since the 1950s. They like to reuse stuff. Spark plug colours are equally ancient. I have the exact same page in a 1959 Triumph motorbike manual as appears in the latest books.

 

[Theleman]

Haynes have always said to use "water". But I suspect the text for that bit has not changed since the 1950s. They like to reuse stuff. Spark plug colours are equally ancient. I have the exact same page in a 1959 Triumph motorbike manual as appears in the latest books.

Maybe in the past, they just used tap water as coolant? I too, recall in the late 80s when I got my first car, which was a battered Austin Princess, I used to top up the coolant with tap water. Didn't even use anti freeze.

The car drove ok for almost a year until I sold it to someone now I cannot remember.

 

[DaveMcT]

I blew up my Mini 1000 because it had lost some "coolant". The temperature gauge had hardly moved from normal and all seemed fine until it seized solid at 70mph on the A40 near Symmonds Yat.

I coasted into a petrol station that was "waiting conveniently for me" and allowed it to cool. The radiator top tank had unsoldered itself!!! After cooling down it actually started with lots of blue smoke. Lots of body filler bodged up the blown radiator top tank and it actually got me home to Derby with regular stops for water refills as the temperature climbed again. It also used most of a 5 litre can of oil, but we got home.

 

[Theleman]

I had a Mini 1000 as well. It was bought for £400 from a porter in the univ. it had bad body work. Some parts were actually bodged with the Sun newspaper under the foot mats, so we worried if passenger might sink while driving motor way.

Engine blew up with coolant problem and causing overheat. We took it to the porter who sold it to us, and he kindly done work to fix it. Not sure what he had done to it, but he called me to get the car back. Like miracle, it drove ok again.

My gf, now wife used to take it to her work commuting and we used to go for a run all over highlands on weekends. It was great fun.

Alas, one day someone crashed into it while my gf was driving. She was slightly hurt, and the Mini had to be scrapped.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I had a Mini 1000 as well. It was bought for £400 from a porter in the univ. it had bad body work. Some parts were actually bodged with the Sun newspaper under the foot mats, so we worried if passenger might sink while driving motor way.

I haven't thought about this in many years but your post brings it back to me. The wee country garage (BL agency) I was working in at that time, had two shop vehicles. Our recovery vehicle as a Land Rover, old style, complete with crane. We also had a mini van which was used to collect spares, attend small breakdowns (often just to replace a set of points and condenser to get someone going again). Anyway on this occasion I had been sent to get a part from another garage some distance away. It was raining hard and I was young and probably going too fast. I didn't take much notice of a very big puddle and blasted through it at speed. Very exhilarating as the water sprayed out to either side! but hold on, what's that moving in the passenger footwell? It's the carpet, bulging upwards! and in that instant the carpet, and several layers of card and newspaper under it, shot up to the roof and I was drenched from head to foot with the filthy water that was shooting up from the hole in the floor. Our boss very seldom even smiled but on that day, and I think it's the only time I saw it, he laughed - along with all my other "friends" in the workshop. He did let me go home and get cleaned up.

 

[Theleman]

New pipe now arrived.

So the bit with the hole should be taken off? Could it be cut off with haacksaw vised on the workbench?

And the forked end of the pipe, one has rubber ring around it. How do these ends get attached to the engine? By hose clips? Or screws? I havent seen that end of the pipe under the bonnet closely at the time. It was just when I meant to study the photos of the oxygen sensors, noticed the badly rusted pipe beside it.

A leaftlet with newly arrived pipe says something about lubing, to ensure not on the rubber, but on the metal or something.

 

[DaveMcT]

The pipe is held by a bracket and M6 screw. I don't know of anything that has to be taken off the new pipe. Remove the screw and pull out the old pipe. The new one pushes into the "back" of the water pump with the integral seal keeping it together. Grease the seal with red rubber grease but WD40 might be adequate.

If the M6 shears off you'll have to drill it out and re-thread the hole. Which is why we went on about radiator removal, front bumper, etc.

Personally, I would clean up any weld clag on the new pipe and paint it properly. But your old one has lasted at least 10 years old so probably overkill.

 

[Theleman]

Here's the wee bracket which has the 10mm headed bolt which is the only mechanical fixing holding the pipe on. Take great care removing it - I'd give it a soaking in plus gas for a couple of days before trying it:

View attachment 198692

The pipe is an awkward shape and you have to twist and turn it around the exhaust manifold as you remove it. Try to remember how you did this as it will help a lot when you are fitting the new one. It does work without removing the manifold though!

PS. I did a wee bit about bleeding out the cooling system on Becky after I changed her pipe. Can't remember what it's called but I would guess it's on page 17 with my entry about her cambelt change. just going to look for it - back in a couple of moments.

Jock said "Take good care of removing it". in his post, and I wasn't sure if the bracket on the pipe had to be removed, or whether he meant take care removing the pipe from the box.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Jock said "Take good care of removing it". in his post, and I wasn't sure if the bracket on the pipe had to be removed, or whether he meant take care removing the pipe from the box.

Hi Theleman. It's the wee m6 bolt (10mm socket fits it) that you need to be careful with as it doesn't take much force to shear it if it's corroded. The bracket itself is welded to the pipe and is there to support the pipe once it's fitted to the engine. I found the most difficult part was getting the pipe back into place behind the exhaust manifold - there's not a lot of room.