Technical How to fit a 16v Fire engine in a Panda

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Technical How to fit a 16v Fire engine in a Panda

Sorry....not sure about pressure...I just called it like that...as far as I know Punto SPI has about 1 PSI and MPI engines need 3 PSI...
(or maybe it's not PSI but it's in "bar" ... :)
PS
Cabrs got about 0.3 (bar) if I'm right :)

Thanks

Ah ok; yes carb will be around 0.2Bar and I think injection pumps are around 2-3 bar.
I mentioned it as I had a similar problem with the Y10 turbo engine where I fitted a carburettor type "solid state" fuel pump but this could not keep up with air boost pressure. :eek: Woops! It would run out of fuel and then backfire with a loud bang! Now it has a 3 Bar injection pump (a bit excessive I know but fuel injection is the next step so all is ready). Fuel pressure is then regulated down to 0.2Bar for the carb!

Si
 
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Hi
So...back home last month and drove her again. This time no problems with it. Was accelerating smoothly. I've managed to connect it to PC, and had only 2 faults (still the same)-petrol vapor valve(charcoal canister)- (as it's not connected) and engine fault light (not connected as well).
MOT health check....done:)
http://imageshack.us/a/img196/6286/kopiasam0335.jpg
I've got 2 questions...
1. Maybe someone knows what is that big air plastic box on the top of original Punto 16V engine for?
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2662/dsc03046a.jpg
Is it just to stop "air vibration" in inlet system?
2. If I blocked "charcoal canister" blue pipe, does it affect engine idling on cold engine? I also don't have valve....if I get one I might connect it just to stop recording fault by ECU. Does anybody know what is exactly function of that device? Is it only to reduce emission?
Thank you
 
I've got 2 questions...
1. Maybe someone knows what is that big air plastic box on the top of original Punto 16V engine for?
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2662/dsc03046a.jpg
Is it just to stop "air vibration" in inlet system?
2. If I blocked "charcoal canister" blue pipe, does it affect engine idling on cold engine? I also don't have valve....if I get one I might connect it just to stop recording fault by ECU. Does anybody know what is exactly function of that device? Is it only to reduce emission?
Thank you

1. The box in the inlet system is to reduce intake noise only.

2. As I said before, the charcoal canister stores fuel vapour. It uses the adsorption potential of the "charcoal" to stick to the surface of it, rather than be absorbed, where it would be difficult to extract again. There will be two valves in this system. One allows the vapour to pass from the inlet manifold to the canister and is normally on the manifold and another is on or near the canister to allow that vapour to go back into the inlet to be burnt at a later stage when the canister reaches a pressure threshold and the engine conditions are suitable (hot). On many FIATs, both are electronic valves controlled by the ECU, but some have one electronic and one vacuum operated valve.

The purpose of the device is to prevent loss of fuel for environmental reasons, which the manufacturers have had to do by law for a while. It will improve economy in theory too of course, but I expect the improvement would be minimal.

In older cars, you would simply have a vent on the fuel tank, which would let out fuel vapour and air as required- simple, but messy in environmental terms. It could cause problems if you blocked up a modern car's system since the whole fuel system is completely sealed and relies on pressure release.

If you are able to use your car for any extended period, then you don't have a breather problem and you can forget all this. If you are experiencing vacuum pressure build up in the tank, then that would manifest itself as an inability to start or run/idle after a while until the pressure in the tank drops naturally through leakage or by opening the fuel cap (you would hear a hiss as you did this). It might explain your recent problems with trying to accelerate.

Although I did hook up the system in my Panda which did have the later sealed setup with a canister already in the wing, I haven't in my Uno track car, which simply has a mechanical vent on the tank and there are no ill effects on that.
 
Thank you for your reply. It's good to have some clarification :)
So I don't need to worry to much. If I get original Punto on scrap yard again I may get it but if not I'll leave as it is.
My tank should has some vent(s) as normal. However I need to check it because I can smell petrol at back seats. I've checked cover between cabin and tank and it's fine, I can't see any holes as well but I'm not sure what previous owner done to vent pipe(s). As he prepared tank and fuel pump on his own (for other Mpi Fiat engine) I've never got time to check it on my own (which I usually like to do, to make sure that everything is as should be :)...
 
Hi, Great thread. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the fuel pump section. I managed to get the assembly out of the tank by taking off one of the metal strips from the sender outer casing and lots of swearing. I have changed over the sender to a punto variant but am now having real trouble getting the assembly back in to the tank. If I take off one of the strips, it goes in with some help from brute force. I then have no way of reattaching the strip once it's all in the tank. Do you have a way to make this easier?
All the best
Will
 
Hi, Great thread. I can see on your first picture of your engine bay, there is a white long relay plugged in to the red and black loom connector and bolted to the heater air box. Could you let me know what this part is? I have a loom with lots of empty connectors and a little puzzled. Cheers
 
I'll got a 1,2 16v cento at the min. Could i just add, if anyone wants to fit the 1.4 16v to their panda.

They can just use the 1.4 engine but with 1.2 16v inlet, tb, ecu. Then the rest of the process will just be the same as fitting the 1.2 16v.

Obviously after it's best you get the ECU remapped, which GSR said they be able to do and the 1.4 16v stilo injectors will fit into the 1.2 16v fuel rail. Which be a great help when remapping.

Ming
 
Hi
I'm attempting the wiring. When you mention the rest of the punto loom, do you mean everything but the engine loom?
Also, when attaching to the panda loom, is it just a case of cutting section in the cable and adding a piggy back connector? Sorry to sound stupid, just don't want to start cutting the car loom up.
Just one more. On my panda (94 COX 1.0Fire) there's a single pin connector coming from the positive side of the battery. Only about 6 inches from the terminal. Would you know what this?
Thanks
Will
 
Hi,

I've attached the orange ignition wire from the Punto loom to the orange wire from the Panda near the battery. I am not getting any spark.

There is a reply in this thread on page 9 which says that only the first turn of the key was connected and once he'd connected position 2, she fired up. So I did some digging.

The Haynes manual says there should be one red, one orange and one orange and light blue wire coming from the ignition switch. So I started to hunt for the orange and blue thinking that if I connect that, all my problems would be solved.

There was no orange and light blue wire. So I took the ignition barrel cover off to see what wires were coming out the barrel. One thick red, one thinner red and a blue and black.

Now I'm scratching my head a little. Could someone let me know if they've had similar difficulties and if possible, tell me if I'm wiring completely the wrong wires?
 
Re...."Using a piggy back connecter and a length of wire run from the water temp sensor on the gearbox end of the 16v head to the Panda water temp wire. This bit is optional a the 16v loom also has a feed for the temp gauge but needs a bit more fiddling to get to gauge...."

Hi,

I've put the Panda through an MOT twice and both times it's failed in emissions. I have changed the lambda sensor and cat but still, the CO and lambda are too high.

One thing I have noticed is that the Punto ECU doesn't know what the temperature of the engine is as the temp sensor is wired to the dash only.

Will this mean the car is constantly in open loop to try and get up to running temperature as quickly as possible?

Is there a cable on the loom which I can splice the temperature sensor cable and connect to?

Other than that, I'm all out of ideas...

Any help greatly appreciated.


Cheers
Will aka losing the will to live.
 
It sounds almost impossible that ECU wouldn't know about temp. This sensor (usually blue) is in all Fire engines since SPI in Panda...
Maybe it's faulty?
Have you got any interface to read figures from ECU?
 
I'll got a 1,2 16v cento at the min. Could i just add, if anyone wants to fit the 1.4 16v to their panda.

They can just use the 1.4 engine but with 1.2 16v inlet, tb, ecu. Then the rest of the process will just be the same as fitting the 1.2 16v.

Obviously after it's best you get the ECU remapped, which GSR said they be able to do and the 1.4 16v stilo injectors will fit into the 1.2 16v fuel rail. Which be a great help when remapping.

Ming

As far as I know 1.4 is not the same engine family...1.2 is still F.I.R.E engine...1.4 has probably differnt gearbox so you ma have more trouble to fit engine and you maybe need to make you own drive shafts...
...
 
Re...."Using a piggy back connecter and a length of wire run from the water temp sensor on the gearbox end of the 16v head to the Panda water temp wire. This bit is optional a the 16v loom also has a feed for the temp gauge but needs a bit more fiddling to get to gauge...."

Hi,

I've put the Panda through an MOT twice and both times it's failed in emissions. I have changed the lambda sensor and cat but still, the CO and lambda are too high.

One thing I have noticed is that the Punto ECU doesn't know what the temperature of the engine is as the temp sensor is wired to the dash only.

Will this mean the car is constantly in open loop to try and get up to running temperature as quickly as possible?

Is there a cable on the loom which I can splice the temperature sensor cable and connect to?

Other than that, I'm all out of ideas...

Any help greatly appreciated.


Cheers
Will aka losing the will to live.

I don't know how you've wired it all up, but the temp sensor needs to go to the ECU (and not the Panda temp sensor you may have utilized). Forget the gauge for now, you can sort that after the MOT. The engine will be running in full cold start-up mode forever without the temp sensor, giving high CO and low (rich) lambda readings. The idle will noticeably drop when you connect he temp sensor properly.

As far as I know 1.4 is not the same engine family...1.2 is still F.I.R.E engine...1.4 has probably differnt gearbox so you ma have more trouble to fit engine and you maybe need to make you own drive shafts...
...
The 1.4 (1368cc) is exactly the same as the 1.2, just with longer stroke and slightly bigger bore. It has the same cylinder head parts and everything. The T-Jet engines are the same engine too, but with a turbo and modified internals. They all fit the same gearboxes from any era.
 
As far as I know 1.4 is not the same engine family...1.2 is still F.I.R.E engine...1.4 has probably differnt gearbox so you ma have more trouble to fit engine and you maybe need to make you own drive shafts...
...

No that's where you are wrong :). It is a FIRE block and will take gearbox from FIRE series.

I would also add is worth while using the 1.4 16v flywheel as is bigger! Then you get the clutch to match!

Ming
 
It sounds almost impossible that ECU wouldn't know about temp. This sensor (usually blue) is in all Fire engines since SPI in Panda...
Maybe it's faulty?
Have you got any interface to read figures from ECU?

Hi,

Thanks for your responses.

I feel a bit stupid. The reason the ECU isn't reading is because I haven't actually wired the temperature sensor to the engine loom.

Following the guide, I'd read the temp sensor only needs to be connected to the Panda loom. Obviously this is not the case and I'll connect it up tonight and see how we get on.

Does anyone know off the top of their heads which colour wire on the Punto loom is the temp sensor?

Thanks again for your help.
 
Hi,

Thanks for your responses.

I feel a bit stupid. The reason the ECU isn't reading is because I haven't actually wired the temperature sensor to the engine loom.

Following the guide, I'd read the temp sensor only needs to be connected to the Panda loom. Obviously this is not the case and I'll connect it up tonight and see how we get on.

Does anyone know off the top of their heads which colour wire on the Punto loom is the temp sensor?

Thanks again for your help.

Hold on a sec, there are two temp sensors on the mk1 16v engine set up.

The one on the end of the block is 12v and is for the temp gauge only, its the one I mentioned piggybacking the wire to the panda temp sensor wire.

The second temp sensor is 5v and used by the ecu. It's the blue one fitted to the inlet manifold by the heater pipe outlet.
 
No that's where you are wrong :). It is a FIRE block and will take gearbox from FIRE series.

I would also add is worth while using the 1.4 16v flywheel as is bigger! Then you get the clutch to match!

Ming

The 1.4 (1368cc) is exactly the same as the 1.2, just with longer stroke and slightly bigger bore. It has the same cylinder head parts and everything. The T-Jet engines are the same engine too, but with a turbo and modified internals. They all fit the same gearboxes from any era.

Thank you !!!
 
Hi,

Thanks for your responses.

I feel a bit stupid. The reason the ECU isn't reading is because I haven't actually wired the temperature sensor to the engine loom.

Following the guide, I'd read the temp sensor only needs to be connected to the Panda loom. Obviously this is not the case and I'll connect it up tonight and see how we get on.

Does anyone know off the top of their heads which colour wire on the Punto loom is the temp sensor?

Thanks again for your help.

I'm not sure how you lost this connection. When I was swapping Punto engine I kept all wires which go around engine. Then I only had to feed ECU wires properly, get proper earth and "link" it with dashboard clocks. If there no cable cut etc...you should find this connection very easy.
PS
Please check pictures...it might help. As previous person said...you need blue sensor to be connected.
Other thing...if there is no connection to this sensor ECU should rather use max temp reading that "cold" engine reading....but I might be wrong.
It is also probably possibility to avoid this temporary by putting resistor instead of sensor (if you find right wires) it should be about 270 ohm (90degree) and 3.2kohm 0 degree.

PS
Where do you live?
 

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Hold on a sec, there are two temp sensors on the mk1 16v engine set up.

The one on the end of the block is 12v and is for the temp gauge only, its the one I mentioned piggybacking the wire to the panda temp sensor wire.

The second temp sensor is 5v and used by the ecu. It's the blue one fitted to the inlet manifold by the heater pipe outlet.
Thanks for all your responses. The photo helped.

I have been scratching my head but it looks as though I had set the loom correctly. I had plugged the 5V temp sensor in (didn't even realise it was a temp sensor. Just fitted all of the connectors). Maybe the sensor is faulty? I'll have another play tomorrow with the multi meter.

Thanks again.

Will
p.s. I'm based in Bristol. Are you close?
 
When the engine has been on a bit, does the idle reduce? When you pull the connector off the temp sensor, does idle increase. These are the simple ways to detect whether it is having any effect. Otherwise, the correct resistance values of the (NTC) sensor are on this forum somewhere.
 
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