Technical How to fit a 16v Fire engine in a Panda

[jangcy]

p.s. I'm based in Bristol. Are you close?

York

PS
Apart from MOT fail is there all OK? Acceleration, fuel economy, how it starts when cold/hot, idling OK or "bouncing"?

Fiats have quite "simple" ECUs...in this engine there is no flow meter etc.
Also when lambda is disconnected I think ECU won't adjust mixture so you may get slight better results or will be worst.
Other option (more possible)is that throttle position sensor is faulty. This sensor is used by ECU to count how much air is going into engine and then ECU can add right amount off fuel (fuel injection times). If it's faulty engine may gets too much fuel - mixture too high, emission too high.

It worth to buy VAG cable and KKL adapter and connect to ECU - that would help to sort it out...it quite cheap on ebay...

 

[chlblnz]

York

PS
Apart from MOT fail is there all OK? Acceleration, fuel economy, how it starts when cold/hot, idling OK or "bouncing"?

Fiats have quite "simple" ECUs...in this engine there is no flow meter etc.
Also when lambda is disconnected I think ECU won't adjust mixture so you may get slight better results or will be worst.
Other option (more possible)is that throttle position sensor is faulty. This sensor is used by ECU to count how much air is going into engine and then ECU can add right amount off fuel (fuel injection times). If it's faulty engine may gets too much fuel - mixture too high, emission too high.

It worth to buy VAG cable and KKL adapter and connect to ECU - that would help to sort it out...it quite cheap on ebay...

I'll disconnect the 5V when I get home and see if the idle drops. Thanks for the tip.

The engine feels and runs great. Has great acceleration in all gears. The car is bloody fast. Although there is an alarming amount of torque steer under load. She feels like she wants to jump lanes The idle is a little uneven but sounds acceptable for an old engine.

I've replaced the lambda sensor recently and that hasn't made a difference.

One thing I'd noticed is the charcoal canister valve. I'll add a picture to the thread later but it feels as if I haven't wired that up quite right. Will this valve has any influence over the emissions?

I'll have a look at buying a diagnostic cable. Do you need specific software?

 

[Dragon Man]

im not sure but is yours the 3 pin cable? if so, >>Here<< is one real cheap...

get hold of a wireless OBD2 reader and use it with your smart phone. thats what we do.

 

[jangcy]

One thing I'd noticed is the charcoal canister valve. I'll add a picture to the thread later but it feels as if I haven't wired that up quite right. Will this valve has any influence over the emissions?

I'll have a look at buying a diagnostic cable. Do you need specific software?

Messure resistance on blue sensor when in boiling water and when in fridge...

As my panda has no charcoal canister I've never wired it up. As person on first page I just blocked blue pipe. When I connect interface there is store error about this but I can't see any differnt.

You need 3 pin adapter, VAG cable (or maybe Wireless ) but I don't know what software works on android etc

I'm using this one:
http://iaw-scan2.sourceforge.net/
from Karolis user...

 

[chlblnz]

York

PS
Apart from MOT fail is there all OK? Acceleration, fuel economy, how it starts when cold/hot, idling OK or "bouncing"?

Fiats have quite "simple" ECUs...in this engine there is no flow meter etc.
Also when lambda is disconnected I think ECU won't adjust mixture so you may get slight better results or will be worst.
Other option (more possible)is that throttle position sensor is faulty. This sensor is used by ECU to count how much air is going into engine and then ECU can add right amount off fuel (fuel injection times). If it's faulty engine may gets too much fuel - mixture too high, emission too high.

It worth to buy VAG cable and KKL adapter and connect to ECU - that would help to sort it out...it quite cheap on ebay...

Hi,

Can I use any VAG cable on eBay? It appears some cables are for specific makes of car.

I have ordered the 3-pin adaptor - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150924104454?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Would this VAG cable be OK? - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-USB-C...iagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3390549a67

 

[jangcy]

Hi
I was using similar so should be OK

 

[chlblnz]

I've tested the 5V temp sensor. There is a large reduction in revs after about 3 seconds after reconnecting it to the loom.

I'm guessing the second 12V temp sensor also controls the fan switch aswell as the dash gauge as that was disconnected and the fan didn't come on at all.

I've received the OBD2 cables and software for the ECU. I'm having trouble running VAG-COM on windows7 so going to try this evening with an XP machine.

One thing that sprung to mind. I've put an aftermarket (K&N) cone induction kit on the car. Would it be possible the ECU is overcompensating for the increased air? I don't have the original airbox as it didn't come with the engine. Does anyone think this may be something to do with the high CO and lambda readings? I'll have another go with the OBD2 tonight and see if any of the sensors or ECU can be reset.

 

[lewey]

I would be surprised if you get any answers from interrogating the ECU. Back then they were very simple and very uninformative.

Sensors cannot be reset. When you disconnect the power from the ECU, it resets all it's modest learning it does. The car will run rich and lumpy for a bit. Sometimes several start-ups, so it wouldn't be wise to test emissions until that was over.

It sounds like the temp sensor is at least mostly working. Don't worry about the induction, it won't cause problems.

I would be looking at the lambda sensor, throttle position sensor, catalytic converter condition and considering overall engine condition.

 

[chlblnz]

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking the ECU would tell me what sensors were being read or not. I'll have a try anyway and see what happens.

I have a new cat in the boot ready to put on but have heard that having high CO can poison it. Wanted to make sure everything else was good first and then fit it. Is this true or should I just stick it on?

I have been disconnecting the battery when I've not been using the car as it can be a few weeks in between me working on it (my garage is pretty far from my house). I'll leave it connected for good now.

I changed the lambda sensor recently. It was a Bosch universal with no connector. Had to cut the old connector off. The instructions advised to wire up like-for-like cables. There are two white cables (heater +,-) Would it make a difference if these cables were wired opposite? There was no way of differentiating them.

 

[lewey]

A cat can be be affected by high CO, but only if it is very high. You might be right to hold off fitting it for now. Think the way you wired the lambda is right, with heater polarity making no difference.

I agree the ECU should tell you if there is no signal from a sensor, but you would have had to have chopped wires off for that to happen. Good luck!

 

[chlblnz]

Messure resistance on blue sensor when in boiling water and when in fridge...

As my panda has no charcoal canister I've never wired it up. As person on first page I just blocked blue pipe. When I connect interface there is store error about this but I can't see any differnt.

You need 3 pin adapter, VAG cable (or maybe Wireless ) but I don't know what software works on android etc

I'm using this one:
http://iaw-scan2.sourceforge.net/
from Karolis user...

Hi,

Jangcy - Did your car pass the MOT without any emission issues? You've said about not having the charcoal canister connected.

I've ran the diagnostic. Few errors

One thing I did notice was the that the idle wasn't very good. It was going from about 890 to 1100 and back constantly (over a few seconds) Wouldn't stay still. Any ideas about this?

My retest is on Friday morning so I'm going to pour some of this in http://rxpfuel.com/index.htm
and change the cat. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for all the help. Will update on Friday.

 

[panda1408]

I would be looking into the water temp sensor fault, sounds like your issue to me.

 

[chlblnz]

Just to add,

The temp sensor was working as when I plugged it back in, the idle dropped significently. Can't clear this error for some reason. Tried resetting the ECU by disconnecting for a few minutes.

 

[panda1408]

Is the temprature reading on the ECU disgnostic software consistent with the temperature guage on the dash? That will tell you if its working properly, the change in idle when you plugged it back in means it is giving a reading but not necesarily the correct reading.

 

[chlblnz]

The temperature parameter on the software gets up to 95deg and the fan switch kicks in. The dash gauge resembles this figure but it's vague as it goes past the 90deg marker.

Just thinking if it could be the idle control valve. I'll give that a good clean tomorrow evening.

 

[thooms]

One thing I did notice was the that the idle wasn't very good. It was going from about 890 to 1100 and back constantly (over a few seconds) Wouldn't stay still. Any ideas about this?

That's lambda to me - when they get old they begin to respond more slowly, so the mixture oscillates between lean and rich causing it to vary. Does it do this when it's cold?

Not too sure on Fiats, but the system I've just fitted in the Saab masks the lambda when the engine's cold and runs open loop (timed injector pulses). It runs closed loop using the lambda sensor to monitor fuelling when the engine gets warm.

Assuming the Fiat system is similar, it would idle smoothly while open loop, then start to oscillate as it starts listening to the lambda.

I know you say you've changed it, did you change it to a new one? A lambda heater issue might look the same, too.

 

[jangcy]

Hi,

Jangcy - Did your car pass the MOT without any emission issues? You've said about not having the charcoal canister connected.

Unfortunately for us my car is not driving in UK and emission test was never a issue if you know what I mean...so I don't even know the readings (but it possible that it could be a problem as there is no cat as well, however for car register in 91 it is probably not needed).
Only what I can say that fuel consumption is OK.

Second thing:
Your errors seems to be connections problems or wiring. Do they come back after clearing them? Check all connection. CHECK engine earth connection.
ECU code error? Have you got code box with immo key or have you got ECU decoded?

Third thing:
Your idling problem. That was mine problem after couple of months after fitting. I had leak on inlet minifold (place where plastic part is connected to alu part-alu "rusted" and then I couldn't even drive). It's worth to check all inlet manifold connections.
(I don't remember what figures you can check on this software but to check air leak it's good to know Short/Long Fuel Trim or air/fuel ratio.
If there is a leak, fuel trim should back to 0ish reading on fully open throttle.

Check also exhaust manifold between engine and lambda sensor.

Other option is charcoal canister. Hole? leak on pipe, faulty valve. Check if no leak and disconnect it when it's close - just to test it.
Leak can affect fuel mixture and maybe it can affect emission.

Other option is faulty stepper engine in throttle body or blocked small holes.

Can you also confirm that there is no leak on "funny" shape rubber breathing pipe?

PS
Lambda can affect emission but shouldn't affect idling.

Take some more readings if you can.

jangcy

 

[chlblnz]

Went down to have a play tonight.

Removed the negative for over half an hour while I tinkered with other parts of the car. When I set the OBD2 back up, the temp sensor V+cc error had cleared. Still had the evap though. The ECU has been decoded and the MIL lamp hasn't been connected so these are still there as errors too.

The good news is the idle is almost perfect now. Unfortunately I did a couple of things so will never know what was causing it. Not to worry.

I viewed your video. That was really helpful, thanks Jancy. I hadn't even noticed the purge valve nozzle on the inlet. So it's been open the whole time. I've now attached a hose and plugged it.

I'd also removed the idle control valve and it was covered is crud. Squirted a healthy amount of carb cleaner all over the mechanical end. Lots of oil and matter came out. Cleaned inside the throttle body housing as it was full of sticky black gunk. All nice and bright. I think the whole inlet could do with stripping down and cleaned but I haven't got time.

Set the OBD2 up and hey presto, it was following it's target idle pretty much all the way until the fan came on. The warmer is got, the better it kept its idle.

The whole system smells better and feels smother. I think blocking the purge valve nozzle really helped. The K&N air sucking is much louder now. Fingers crossed for the emissions test on Friday

 

[jangcy]

Good luck !!
PS
Still worth to check connection on inlet manifold (where plastic half connects alloy half)...

PS
Where is your evap valve? I know that Punto got it but my Panda hasn't so that's why I've got this error always on...have you managed to connect Panda valve with Punto ECU wires? It seems to be part of "outside" engine wiring connection as I haven't found this connector on my Punto's engine ECU wires...

 

[lewey]

I hadn't even noticed the purge valve nozzle on the inlet. So it's been open the whole time. I've now attached a hose and plugged it.

Basically, this was the problem. Lean mix (high lambda reading), lumpy high idle.

The evap purge valve or lack thereof is not important electrically for the running of the engine in your setup, so don't worry about it unless you want to fit it.

As I suspected, the ECU said some things that got you thinking about a lot of things the problem wasn't as the ECU is unable to tell you "There is a hole in the inlet manifold".

Well done on finding the issue anyhow.