Technical How do I know if I got hydraulic tappets

[Fiatfarmer]

Good evening all,

I’m looking for an easy and cheap too maintain follow up for my current ‘98 sei 899. And if there are 1108s with hydraulic tappets around, why wouldn’t I go and search for one… it makes it all just a bit easier and thereby I think it’s a little intimidating too screw of the valve cover and open up the engine, esspecially since I not that good at working clean and I just don’t want too ruin my engine.

So, here comes the question: if there are any 1108s with hydraulic tappets, how do I find out if the engine has them, is it just as simple as looking too the model (like SX or active etc.) or do I have to pop the bonnet and take a look underneeth the valve cover?

Cheers!

 

[dac69er]

I didn't think any of the seicento or Cinquecento range had hydraulic tappets?

What are the issues with the shims? Once set, if the car is looked after they very rarely need adjusting until you hit 100k miles or more if at all.

 

[Fiatfarmer]

I didn't think any of the seicento or Cinquecento range had hydraulic tappets?

What are the issues with the shims? Once set, if the car is looked after they very rarely need adjusting until you hit 100k miles or more if at all.

My ‘98 899 sei has hydraulic tappets and I think they are pretty neat since I’ve got nearly no looking after them (well… at least that’s the idea behind them…)

 

[dac69er]

Most hydraulic ones in cars the age of the sei and cinq are probably not working properly anyway.

Like I said, the shims once set very rarely need looking at again. It's a non- issue to worry about in my opinion.

 

[portland_bill]

I do believe all the 899 Cinq and Sei had hydraulic tappets.
All teh 1.1 and 1.2 FIRE engines in Cinq, Sei and Panda have shims on the bucket tappets, but as said above, rarely need adjusting in the life of the engine. Service interval says check, have done that a few times, on several engines, never had to adjust any.

 

[Fiatfarmer]

Most hydraulic ones in cars the age of the sei and cinq are probably not working properly anyway.

Like I said, the shims once set very rarely need looking at again. It's a non- issue to worry about in my opinion.

Alright, thanks, I’ll keep it in mind, but to be annoying… saying that manual adjusted valves are better, still doesn’t answer my question…

 

[dac69er]

Alright, thanks, I’ll keep it in mind, but to be annoying… saying that manual adjusted valves are better, still doesn’t answer my question…

I never said they were necessarily better. They definitely have there advantages, but the early ones, especially now the cars are older, just aren't that great.

Your reason for wanting them is for ease of maintenance, but you are more likely to have issues with them that without them. So why worry whether the engine has them or not?

 

[Fiatfarmer]

I do believe all the 899 Cinq and Sei had hydraulic tappets.
All teh 1.1 and 1.2 FIRE engines in Cinq, Sei and Panda have shims on the bucket tappets, but as said above, rarely need adjusting in the life of the engine. Service interval says check, have done that a few times, on several engines, never had to adjust any.

Alright, thanks, but I think i need too search youtube for videos on which it’s well vissible. I’m better at understanding things by seeing how things work

 

[Fiatfarmer]

I never said they were necessarily better. They definitely have there advantages, but the early ones, especially now the cars are older, just aren't that great.

Your reason for wanting them is for ease of maintenance, but you are more likely to have issues with them that without them. So why worry whether the engine has them or not?

Well, I quite want them, because if the ones already in there are rubish, I can replace them by new ones, or youngly used ones, and since in both cases I have to unbolt the valve cover anyway too check valve clearances I can just as well buy one with the tappers, because I have too throw being intimidated by tearing it all apart overboard anyway… then I like the idea of getting my act together and fixing stuff so I don’t have too tear it apart every like 40k miles better

 

[portland_bill]

You came on here to ask for advice, have been given advice, but choose to argue with it, presumably because of your own thoughts and prejudices. If you just wanted to confirm your own assumptions, this is the wrong forum. That attitude does not sit well with those giving the benefit of their experience and wisdom, many of which have good memories. This can affect whether further advice is forthcoming.
The FIRE engine was a simple design, and has proven very reliable, and as a result is the most popular unit on here, and well loved. If serviced properly, with correct oil change intervals, the valve clearances rarely need attention. Searching YouTube, or anywhere else, will only find those who've needed to, as a video of not needing to adjust them is hardly worht posting.
The early Cinq 899 engines had troublesome hydraulic tappets, many needing replacement under warranty, and many more needing replacement later in life. The FIRE engines are significantly more reliable.

 

[David C]

The early Cinq 899 engines had troublesome hydraulic tappets, many needing replacement under warranty, and many more needing replacement later in life. The FIRE engines are significantly more reliable.

Yes 899 Cinq hydraulic tappets were rubbish, even when new. If he had those he wouldn't be hailing their greatness...!!

I replaced the hydraulic rockers on my 899 Cinq with the solid setup from an earlier Panda. After fitting and adjusting, I never needed to touch them again and they were far quieter than the hydraulic ones too...

 

[Fiatfarmer]

Yes 899 Cinq hydraulic tappets were rubbish, even when new. If he had those he wouldn't be hailing their greatness...!!

I replaced the hydraulic rockers on my 899 Cinq with the solid setup from an earlier Panda. After fitting and adjusting, I never needed to touch them again and they were far quieter than the hydraulic ones too...

But wait, are they really that worthless then? And how about the tappets on the 1.1 used in newer seis (the ones I’m actually looking at)? I’m quite hoping that fiat improved their stuff through the years, but if it all went down the same path like fueltanks in cinqs and seis did, I really think I have too give in and choose your sides, but I just can’t wrap my head around it… if the tappets in the 899 cinqs were absolute rubbish (since I’ve read that on multiple places…) then why haven’t they improved them through the years, so that by the beginning of the 21st century they’d have a proper low maintanance and low cost engine?

 

[David C]

But wait, are they really that worthless then? And how about the tappets on the 1.1 used in newer seis (the ones I’m actually looking at)? I’m quite hoping that fiat improved their stuff through the years, but if it all went down the same path like fueltanks in cinqs and seis did, I really think I have too give in and choose your sides, but I just can’t wrap my head around it… if the tappets in the 899 cinqs were absolute rubbish (since I’ve read that on multiple places…) then why haven’t they improved them through the years, so that by the beginning of the 21st century they’d have a proper low maintenance and low cost engine?

They improved the 899 hydraulic tappets in very late Cinq, 899 Sei then used those improved ones.

1108 Cinq & Sei all used shims and are fine. No issues at all.
In theory the 1108 shims need periodic checking and adjustment (by fitting a different sized shim), but in practice they are likely fine for life.

 

[portland_bill]

But wait, are they really that worthless then? And how about the tappets on the 1.1 used in newer seis (the ones I’m actually looking at)? I’m quite hoping that fiat improved their stuff through the years, but if it all went down the same path like fueltanks in cinqs and seis did, I really think I have too give in and choose your sides, but I just can’t wrap my head around it… if the tappets in the 899 cinqs were absolute rubbish (since I’ve read that on multiple places…) then why haven’t they improved them through the years, so that by the beginning of the 21st century they’d have a proper low maintanance and low cost engine?

Generally hydraulic tappets are very good, reducing maintenance, but they do require a good supply of clean oil. Fiat just got it wrong with the 899 Cinq engine.
That engine was an old unit, that had just had a few tweaks through the years. It first appeared many years ago, with manually adjusted tappets. I think it was the Fiat 850 of 1964 that first used it. To be still using it, and meeting emission regs, through to 2000 shows what a good engine it was. Not having been designed for hydraulic tappets was probably one factor in them not being good. This engine was dropped mid 2000, when all Seis went 1.1.
The FIRE engine was deliberately designed as a simple unit, to be built using robots, not people, and this has been part of the reason it is so reliable and long-lived.
Valve lift is short, so valve springs do not need to be too heavy. This keeps the loadings on the cam lobes low, and with enough oil, and a large tappet area, wear is minimal. With such low wear rates, hydraulic adjustment was unnecessary, and an expense not justified. I think the later development with twin cams got hydraulic tappets. Sadly didn't keep my Punto long enough to investigate.
The FIRE engine is now gone. Replaced by the new 3 cyl Firefly unit. Striving to bring better fuel efficiency and emissions has driven this, the FIRE design having got as far as it could.
As long as you change the oil regularly, and ensure coolant leaks are sorted promptly, the FIRE engine will outlive you.
(Right now, I can't think of any engine that might have a longer service life.)

 

[Fiatfarmer]

Alright, thanks guys, then it shall be an ‘04 (or newer) with a 1.1 mpi in the front as a follow up for my current 899. But I’m starting too worry a bit now… since the previous owners really quite abused it as a delivery car for their restaurant and they can’t remember giving it a proper oil change and a new filter once!

 

[dac69er]

Alright, thanks guys, then it shall be an ‘04 (or newer) with a 1.1 mpi in the front as a follow up for my current 899. But I’m starting too worry a bit now… since the previous owners really quite abused it as a delivery car for their restaurant and they can’t remember giving it a proper oil change and a new filter once!

If it's been treated like that, slightly off valve clearances would be the least of your worries.

 

[portland_bill]

Alright, thanks guys, then it shall be an ‘04 (or newer) with a 1.1 mpi in the front as a follow up for my current 899. But I’m starting too worry a bit now… since the previous owners really quite abused it as a delivery car for their restaurant and they can’t remember giving it a proper oil change and a new filter once!

Change the oil and filter immediately. Use a high quality synthetic oil. Change it again in 3 months time. If it gets black quickly, repeat until it lasts for the full normal term.
Check coolant level daily in the first week or so, then reduce the frequency if level is not falling.
A new set of spark plugs will probably do it a lot of good. Have a new set of plug leads handy, as they tend to grow on, and can break during removal. Treat them as service items. Air filter may well be horrid too.

 

[Fiatfarmer]

Change the oil and filter immediately. Use a high quality synthetic oil. Change it again in 3 months time. If it gets black quickly, repeat until it lasts for the full normal term.
Check coolant level daily in the first week or so, then reduce the frequency if level is not falling.
A new set of spark plugs will probably do it a lot of good. Have a new set of plug leads handy, as they tend to grow on, and can break during removal. Treat them as service items. Air filter may well be horrid too.

Bin looking for parts already and have read one another about engine flush, which should clean any gunk in the engine. Will this be the right solution for the current situation? Or should I better not use an engine flush?

 

[portland_bill]

No, do not flush. If the engine has deposits, let the new oil dissolve them gently and carry them to the filter. A flush is too aggressive, and can lead to larger dislodged deposits floating around, to block the smaller oilways.
From that thought, get a cam cover gasket, remove the cover and check the oil spray bar for the cam is not blocked. You'll also get a look at the situation in there, and know what state it is in.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I agree with PB above. An older engine which has not had regular oil changes is likely to have built up thick deposits of solids. these will have stacked up in the corners and "nooks and crannies". If you use a flush you risk dislodging some of these thicker deposits rather than slowly dissolving them. Disolved deposits will be either retained in solution in the oil and come out with it when drained or slightly larger particles will be trapped in the filter. (I always fit a new filter when I change oil regardless) If you loosen larger particles they might partially block up the sump strainer and reduce the quantity of oil the pump can suck up - not good. Or, if these solids manage to get through the strainer, they will travel through the oil pump - possibly causing scoring etc, again not good - and then block up the oil filter medium or at least reduce it's ability to flow oil. The result is likely to be that the bypass valve in the filter will lift and allow unfiltered oil to circulate round the engine (most oil filters have bypass valves to reduce the risk of oil starvation and to allow some of the oil to bypass the filter when it's cold and too thick to all flow through the filter medium) Of course, if the oil contains contaminants, this allows these solids to circulate throughout the engine, blocking up, or partially blocking up vital oilways like the cam oil supply also "gritty bits" just love to embed themselves in the soft metal of the crankshaft and camshaft bearing shells - again not good, in fact very bad! So, in my opinion, although the idea of cleaning out the insides of your engine sounds lovely, NO, DON'T USE A FLUSH. As PB suggests, use a good quality modern oil - which will have a good detergent package of additives in it - and double up on oil and filter changes for the first 18 months or so. If you suspect the engine is very dirty I'd even do a change after maybe a month or so.

I've had people argue that this is not going to get all the deposits out of the engine so surely a flush is better. To these people I'd say, have you ever stripped an old engine? (even a lawnmower engine). Unless it's been very well maintained and had very regular oil changes you'll find little pockets of pretty solid "gunge" tucked away in many corners. Small horticultural engines are especially bad for this as they have no filter - do you change your mower oil twice a year as recommended? - Regardless of these deposits these engines run for many hours because these deposits just stay where they are and don't find their way round the engine. Let sleeping dogs lie I say.

With the FIRE engine I also agree to take the cam cover off and look at the oil supply to the cam. Turn the engine over on the starter with plugs out and observe. New gasket on reassembly with a wee dab of sealant in the corners.