Tuning help 1.6 16valve turbo idea

[animal91]

hi i have got a seicento 1.1 sporting single point injection, i have just brought a punto 1.2 16 valve multi point injection, need help and advice on a idea i have had, so here i go. i have spoke to a few people now and no one has seen a 1.6 16valve turbo seicento, so i wanted to punto bottom end bored out to a 1.6 and fit it into seicento and get the turbo of the coupe 20v and fit that. just wondering if its possible and how hard is it going to be. as i no the punto engine will fit straight in, but will the single point and multipoint give me a problem. also any ideas on bhp. also i no im going to need to uprate brakes etc what else will i need to do thanks ben

 

[rallycinq]

Can you guess the reason why no one has done this conversion before?

Cheers

D

 

[fingers99]

I'm pretty sure you can't bore the 1.2 block out -- the 1.4 16v is stroked, rather than bored out. The turbo off a coupe is probably not suitable.

MPI with an aftermarket ECU is the only sensible way to look after fuelling, etc.

There is a 1.2 8v Cinq knocking out 160bhp (and experiencing handling and reliability issues).

Building a reliable big horsepower FIRE engine is expensive, buying one (the engine from an Abarth Punto, Mito 155 or 500 Abarth) isprobably going to be cheaper. Brakes, suspension and wheels/tyres need to be uprated.

 

[Todger182]

I don't want to put you off, but here are some issues that stop people from trying.

The 1.6 16v engine will fit, but theres a problem (actually many), you will need to fabricate entirely new engine mounts for both engine and gearbox.

The exhaust manifold will be closest to the bulkhead so temps inside the car will get on the warm side (turbo is a no no, just no room for one unless rear mounted), and the inlet manifold will need to be ditched and in turn replaced with ITB's as there just isn't enough room for it (so again turbo is out of the question).

Quite alot of the front end will need to hacked away to allow some room, battery will have to be moved, heater matrix will need to be removed and replaced with a smaller equivilant (assuming you wanted heating inside the car).

All new custom driveshafts will need to be measured and made.

Now heres something that made me think " whats the point", the 1.6 engine is only 103 bhp, whereas the panda 100hp is a 1.4 16v, and is 100hp .

Back onto your boring idea. The 1.2 block can be bored out, but I think at most I would go to is 1.5 as there just isn't enough meat there. Going further than that could result in the cylinder walls beaking down due to heat.

Then you would need a set of custom pistons making which can get quite expensive.

The question that needs to be asked is, do you want a fast car, or a fast cento?

Thanks

 

[clock34]

http://centolovers.blogspot.com/2009/11/cinquecento-swap-tipo-16-turbo-engine.html this would be the worst handling cento though.

as for the 1.6 just turbo a 1368 16v something like the t-jet easier swap and solves mannnny of your problems.

 

[craigb244]

Now heres something that made me think " whats the point", the 1.6 engine is only 103 bhp, whereas the panda 100hp is a 1.4 16v, and is 100hp .

yes... but... there is no replacement for displacement, so even though the bhp figures are basically the same, the 1.6 WILL have a big torque figure compared

 

[ycming]

I'm pretty sure you can't bore the 1.2 block out -- the 1.4 16v is stroked, rather than bored out. The turbo off a coupe is probably not suitable.

MPI with an aftermarket ECU is the only sensible way to look after fuelling, etc.

There is a 1.2 8v Cinq knocking out 160bhp (and experiencing handling and reliability issues).

Building a reliable big horsepower FIRE engine is expensive, buying one (the engine from an Abarth Punto, Mito 155 or 500 Abarth) isprobably going to be cheaper. Brakes, suspension and wheels/tyres need to be uprated.

Does that mean if i fit the crank piston, rods from the 1.416v to a 12.16v block i would have a 1.4 16v?

Thanks
Ming

 

[craigb244]

nope! the 1.4 does have very slightly larger pistons... less then 1mm, just like the 1.1 to the 1.2.

you wont want the 1.4 anway... its to long of a stroke to be any good at reving

what we are going to try for a autotest cento, fiat fire 999 crank in a 1.2 cut down block,
makes the engine just smaller then the 1.1 but very square and screamy

 

[whitz]

if i was you i would say with the 1.2 16v engine that you say you have and ive it a going over, there are plenty of small cheap mods that is able to be done to give it more go

i also see that you are in Shropshire, where abouts ?


Ash

 

[jimbro1000]

If you're going for extra displacement - make sure the head is capable of flowing it first.

The 16v engines aren't built for revs so there is no point trying to get much more, you're wasting your time and money if you try as the hydraulic lifters won't let you.

A longer stroke engine with a turbo is better suited as you will get more torque at lower revs to offset any lag from the turbo and if you build it right you don't need big boost either so no need for a stupidly low compression ratio.

We've had 150bhp out a NA 8v 1242 engine that has been bored out to the limit but only an imbecile would want to drive it. The downside is that was pretty much the limit of the airflow for the head, we just couldn't get much more through it. A charger of any kind would help with the situation - we reckon on an easy 190bhp at low pressure but that is all the 1242 16v block (we converted it to use 8v internals and ancillaries) is good for before distortion and cracking becomes a real risk. We've also had a good 120bhp out of the 16v 1242 engine but just kept banging our heads against the lifter problem, a 1368 would likely see that rise closer to 140bhp. The newer 1368 16v engines are obviously capable of more - the turbo engine in particular has reinforcements to combat the stresses.

If I had to start again on my engine it would be the new turbo engine as the starting point - the NA route is fun but expensive. We would be looking at serious gasflow work on the head with lightening and balancing of the bottom end to let it rev quickly and easily. We've already developed some serious turbo system wizardry for another engine that means higher compression and lower boost than is otherwise considered wise for the size of turbo.

To put this in perspective though, the old 1.4 8v turbo engine I run in the racecar is pushing out 350bhp (depending on the atmospherics) with nearly 450bhp on overboost. The new fire engine would fall apart at slightest wiff of this kind of power...

 

[arc]

hmmm.. a pipe dream you say?

 

[animal91]

hiya mate whitchurch in shropshire,not far from you buddy.

and cheers for all the help guys me and my mate are both mechanics so were just going to give it a shot and see what happens. instead of boring it just going to try getting 1.6 block now put 16 valve head on with larger valves and good port and polish on head and inlet manifold. not to sure what to do about turbo at the moment as were stuck between gt turbo or 20v coupe turbo but gong to be running loads of boost so thinking 20v coupe. order all the performance pistons and con rods today £899 for the set.

as soon as find block and everything will start uploading pictures etc

 

[Eklipze3k]

It sounds like another 'dreamer' thread to me, but on the off chance that it's not maybe this will be of some use ...
https://www.fiatforum.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=20438&cat=20

 

[Todger182]

I don't think there will be room for you to keep the standard inlet manifold on the 1.6 16v, it's quite large and I think it will touch the bonnet. Last person that did the 1.6 16v swap used ITB's instead.

It's almost perfect to use ITB's aswell as I mentioned earlia the exhast manifold with be bulkhead side, and the inlet will be bumper side.

For the turbo to fit with the pipework, maybe a spaceframe front end could be fabricated to acomodate the room needed for the ITB's and plenum?

Thanks

 

[whitz]

if you did go ahead then it would be best for space frame chassis up front like todger said to give you the extra room needed



https://www.fiatforum.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=20519&cat=20 you know you want to

Ash

 

[J333EVO]

I believe you are wasting your money spending £900 on bits for an engine that is not going to fit without major work when for £1500 you could buy the 500 Abarth engine & gearbox with all ancillaries from a sub 5k car as listed on eBay by Charles Trent down in Poole.

The engine will bolt in place & although the turbo in manifold design would need ditched with a nice tubular manifold and the slightly bigger Garrett turbo off the GP Abarth with only 1.3 bar of boost gives 215-220bhp and loads of torque as this is what the Trofeo cars run. I did sone work on them before the series started.

 

[animal91]

can some one explain itb's sorry, and j333evo saw you have a 6 speed box can i ask where you got it thanks. emailed yesterday about having block bored out, waiting for reply then if not will call tuesday thanks ben. going for a big push to get done now as lost my best mate this week and his funeral in two weeks so trying to get as much done so can drive there in memory thanks guys

 

[Todger182]

ITB 's, Individual Throttle Bodies. Motorbike throttle bodies .

The last time I asked about cylinder boring the chap said "I can keep goin until i hit a water jacket". Wasn't the answer I ws looking for in all fairness but he said that you need to know the size of the pistons that your thinking of using for him to give definate yay or nay.

Thanks

 

[animal91]

itb then easy to do or will i need custom making or can it be diy like and bike throttle bodies ie gsr 600 then custom thanks ben

 

[Todger182]

You will need a custom manifold making, then trumpets. If your going turbo you will also need a plenum making to fit over the end with trumpets built into the plenum.

For the 1.6 engine then the gsxr 600 bodies would be needed. same bodies can be used for the 1.4, and 1.2 16v engine.

To be fair ITB's on a 1.6 16v would be sweet without a turbo, easy 130bhp Naturally aspirated with a sweet torque curve.

Thanks