Technical front wheel alignment

[supernova83]

A week ago I had two front tyres fitted due to bad alignment scrubbing them (pulling left), looking face on to the car, steering wheel centred, it could be clearly seen the left wheel toed out. Wheels were re-centred at the same time, I'm happy this was done as the bloke was good enough to let me watch.

:bang: Was all good for 60/70 miles, now once again pulls left, and the left wheel can be seen to kick out again, when driving straight the steering has to be corrected to the right, that will be hurting the tyres again, don't want to be ruining £55 a tyre again

Any suggestions where to be looking for the cause?
Could it simply be stripped threads on the tie rod inner/ends?
The inners are probably original and have almost 130 Thou miles and who knows how many adjustments on them.
Recent MOT noted no issues on the front suspension.

 

[koalar]

suspension never needs realignment unless something is worn out or loose

and it should never be that bad you can visibly see it

I don't see how one wheel can point outwards

if one wheel pointed out by 10 degrees to drive in a straight line you would have to move the steering wheel so both tyres pointed out by 5 degrees and both tyres would wear out on the inside.


pulling to one side is purely due to the electric steering self centering position assuming the rest of the suspension is okay

 

[koalar]

if its altering you will have to fix whats worn or loose fist.


I'd start by jacking the car up and pushing and pull hard at 3 and 9 o'clock position of the font tyre's and see if anything moves. Lower arm rear bush is favourite

 

[09 johno]

I'd look at the lower wishbone, I replaced both on mine last year, it was surprising how bad the rear bushes were.
not helped by driving up curbs, potholes and speed bumps.

 

[portland_bill]

:yeahthat:

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Sounds like something's quite seriously awry (worn) here. The good thing is that showing up so obviously as this means it should be quite easy to track down. As everyone says, start with the rear bushes on those arms.

As you say the tyres were showing wear due to misalignment I find it a wee bit strange the chap who did the tyres and then alignment didn't notice?

 

[Jockcl500]

Sounds like something's quite seriously awry (worn) here. The good thing is that showing up so obviously as this means it should be quite easy to track down. As everyone says, start with the rear bushes on those arms.

As you say the tyres were showing wear due to misalignment I find it a wee bit strange the chap who did the tyres and then alignment didn't notice?

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I have seen a tyre fitter changing two tyres and then adjusting the alignment, when the ball joint had excessive play.
In my experience the alignment is most likely to be off, because something is worn, of someone has adjusted something, without bothering to check for wear.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In my experience the alignment is most likely to be off, because something is worn, of someone has adjusted something, without bothering to check for wear.

Hello Jock, what a braw name!

So called mechanics (sorry, technicians they call them now?) carrying out tracking without thoroughly checking the front suspension first is one of my all time favourite rants!

 

[koalar]

I am fairly confident that if you drove out of one garage after alignment and drove it 500 yards to another garage it would need alignment again

its down to the person doing the alignment and how the car settles and condition of the components

thats not to say they are all bad. Just the vast majority are up selling the service as a way to print money.


I have just repaired a Hyundai i10 thats leaking oil through a. rusty oil filter thats dated 2013 even though it was suppose to have been recently serviced at a Hyundai garage. The filter was stuck and I guess the technician either didn't have the knowledge or be bothered to sort it out properly.

the old slip/slide gauges/plates were better..

a) its less affected by a buckled wheels
B) the car moving forwards so a lot of play is taken up as if the car was being driven.
C) harder to mess up

A lot of garages carried on using this old tech for awhile. Some ATS for one. But they had to change because customers want "LASER" alignment and its slower to adjust as there is a bit of trial and. error.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I am fairly confident that if you drove out of one garage after alignment and drove it 500 yards to another garage it would need alignment again

its down to the person doing the alignment and how the car settles and condition of the components

thats not to say they are all bad. Just the vast majority are up selling the service as a way to print money.
the old slip/slide gauges/plates were better..

a) its less affected by a buckled wheels
B) the car moving forwards so a lot of play is taken up as if the car was being driven.
C) harder to mess up

A lot of garages carried on using this old tech for awhile. Some ATS for one. But they had to change because customers want "LASER" alignment and its slower to adjust as there is a bit of trial and. error.

Absolutely agree with that koalar. In my view the big variable is down to compliant bushings (like the rubber bushes you find in suspension arms). Wear in ball type joints (like track rod ends and bottom ball joints) are really quite easy to identify as they will develop play which you can easily feel by "rocking" the wheel. Rubber bushes are much more of a judgement call as they will always have some movement when levered so you need to be experienced to judge what is "normal" and what is "excessive". All complicated by voided bushes which are "stiff" in one direction and very pliable in another! It's the movement in this type of bushing which means you will probably never get an identical reading if you drive the car round the block after adjustment and then recheck it.

Of course it's all a compromise because if you make the bushings stiffer the whole car becomes less pleasant to drive with noise and vibration being transmitted to the occupants. As some of you may know I started out as a tyre race engineer working for Firestone mainly on the European Touring Cars. Being a tyre man (or "tire", as the Yanks spell it) I was heavily involved in advising over suspension set ups and many of the vehicles used "Rose Joints" in their suspensions, which have absolutely no compliance at all:
https://www.compbrake.com/product-category/suspension/rose-joints-rod-ends/
With this sort of setup you could adjust just about everything (Castor, Camber, KPI, etc) and achieve very accurate settings indeed and they would maintain it no matter how high the suspension loadings. Of course when you coupled this to the "stiff" suspension springs they used and stiff anti roll bar settings your teeth fillings had better be in good order because the ride was pretty terrible!

So, as with so many things to do with cars, at the end of the day it comes down to the experience and care and commitment of the operator of the equipment. If you have a Laser alignment done always be sure to get the final readout sheets. Doesn't mean they've done their pre alignment checks properly but does give a wee bit of reassurance perhaps?

 

[DaveMcT]

The rubber bushes at the back of the front bottom can wear badly. Mine failed the MoT, yet appeared ok, even with the wheels removed.

I sourced replacedments from Shop4Parts. You "can" get some a little cheaper from eBay but who knows at what quality. I think mine were under £40 each. You may also need drop links and will definitely need new ball joint pinch bolts.

 

[supernova83]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Lower arms and drop links were replaced last year, almost to the day, top strut mounts were replaced before tyres too, mot before i had the tyres swapped didnt pick up on anything suspention related.
My usual garage is closed for a few weeks hol now. Soon as hes back ill get him to get the pry bars out, suppose it cant hurt asking him to check the rod end threads, rules that out, be just my luck that its something thats just ran out of warranty.

 

[DaveMcT]

Mine pulls left a little too much with the "correct" tracking (zero degrees). Adding a bit of toe-in sorts it. In my case 1 (or two**) "flats" on the steering ties rods at each side.
169 Pandas are not unknown for having the back axle slightly out on one side, but mine has been shown correct in all planes at two different garages.

It was done a while ago. I really should have written it down.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Mine pulls left a little too much with the "correct" tracking (zero degrees). Adding a bit of toe-in sorts it. In my case 1 (or two**) "flats" on the steering ties rods at each side.
169 Pandas are not unknown for having the back axle slightly out on one side, but mine has been shown correct in all planes at two different garages.

It was done a while ago. I really should have written it down.

Becky (2010 Panda Dynamic Eco) also has a very slight tendency to pull to the left. Rebuilding the front suspension - struts, springs, top mounts etc - have reduced it somewhat but she still does it. I was going to spend this summer building my own gear to check rear end alignment but there have been so many distractions - several episodes of ill health in the family and a substantial house extension being built at my boy's house in which I'm very involved - that I've not even yet replaced her slightly weeping rear brake cylinders let alone started to investigate her rear end!

 

[portland_bill]

Somewhere in the depths of this forum, someone reported that the left rear hub flange was misaligned slightly, and added shims between it and the stub axle. I'm not sure I like that idea, as the stub axle should be sat against the whole plate, not just at the four studs.

Ideally it needs a tapered shim plate, but that would be expensive.

Wouldn't it be great if the aftermarket manufacturer had taken a little time to make theirs better than original. But they just copied, exactly, an old one. The sample must have had some damage. There are lots of little brackets for brake pipes, cables and hoses, and the whole pile of them had bent brackets, all identical.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Somewhere in the depths of this forum, someone reported that the left rear hub flange was misaligned slightly, and added shims between it and the stub axle. I'm not sure I like that idea, as the stub axle should be sat against the whole plate, not just at the four studs.

Ideally it needs a tapered shim plate, but that would be expensive.

Wouldn't it be great if the aftermarket manufacturer had taken a little time to make theirs better than original. But they just copied, exactly, an old one. The sample must have had some damage. There are lots of little brackets for brake pipes, cables and hoses, and the whole pile of them had bent brackets, all identical.

I read about that too and I'm glad you've mention it PB. I was thinking the same thing. I believe that with the hub flange flat against the axle plate there will be considerable support being provided to resist distortional forces on the flange. When you put washers between the flange and the axle plate you are going to be concentrating forces much more locally and the levering effect of the loads through the axle may cause flexion of the flange so fractures might be more likely to form? In the event, as it's a pretty substantial chunk of metal, I think problems are unlikely - but introducing a possible stress concentration is not good engineering practice is it? You're idea of a tapered shim would solve the problem but, as you say, I wouldn't like to fund it!

I suppose you can't blame the manufacturers of the pattern axles for copying what they probably thought was a standard spec axle. I've never seen this misalignment problem discussed anywhere other than in our forum so they would be unaware of any problem. - do you think there's more than one concern actually manufacturing these? Or are they all being made in one location, probably out east, and then sold on through multiple outlets?

 

[rmjbn1]

Somewhere in the depths of this forum, someone reported that the left rear hub flange was misaligned slightly, and added shims between it and the stub axle. I'm not sure I like that idea, as the stub axle should be sat against the whole plate, not just at the four studs.

Good morning chaps It might have been me, I added steel shim washers to both my rear hubs (0.7mm left, 0.1mm right), I know @09 johno did the same but with gasket material, which is probably a better idea

The stub axle has four lugs, it doesn't sit flat against the face of the mounting plate:

My problem was the left rear tyre shredding itself (more here). I think it's better now, but I've only driven about 300 miles in the last 6 months, so a bit hard to monitor the tyre wear at present...

I understand it's possible to adjust the rear axle slightly by loosening the three mounting bolts each side, but I don't have the ability to do this remotely accurately.

@supernova83, did you get a read-out of four wheel alignment? This is what mine looked like:

For reference, my front tyres were not wearing noticeably, only one rear tyre. The front was adjusted after this, but there is no adjustment on the rear axle for camber or toe.

Symptom of rear axle mis-alignment would seem to be rear tyre wear rather than front? But as you can see the thrust angle (in the black box) was out (should be 0, obviously), so it might be worth exploring if nothing else works?

Has yours always shredded one tyre, or has this recently developed? My car came with receipts for one new tyre every MoT...

Steering pulling to the left seems a common complaint on 169 Pandas? Mine certainly pulls much less than it used to after shimming the rear axle, it used to need constant correction.

 

[supernova83]

Afraid it was just the front wheels that were checked/adjusted (was a really quick job), ill make sure all 4 are checked when booked in. I have the 4x4 so two independent arms on the rear rather than a beam. Rear bushes have been replaced also. Its developed more recently, certainly this year, ive become more aware of it since seeing the inide of the R/H tyre scrubbed away.
I have noticed the left rear caliper sticking more often, so thats next weekends job, one less thing eliminated. Im still drawn to something wrong on the front left corner though for it to be visibly noticed.
Wonder if he tightened the lock nut properly ?
Bloody cars going to bankrupt me, love it though

 

[rmjbn1]

Ah, sorry, didn't realise it was the 4x4. You can just ignore all that rubbish above then!

I have noticed the left rear caliper sticking more often, so thats next weekends job, one less thing eliminated.

The left rear caliper on my MX5 is always causing problems, usually sticking handbrake mechanism but have also replaced a rusty piston as well as slider pins. I guess that corner just gets a lot of muck thrown at it.

I used to be a bit sniffy about drum rear brakes, but they do seem to cause a lot less trouble!

 

[Zoikarios140]

Hello my friend

I had a problem with alligment in my panda , after 2 workshops with different machines the car always was pulling left or right.After that I make a new alligment in steering wheel with examiner to zero , and after that make a new alligment . The car after that was straight about 1 mile without hand on steering.