Technical Fiat Panda 4x4 - P75 Engine Upgrades (866 camshaft)

[fotme]

Hi there,

Hope you are well and loving your Pandas! <3

I have been a reader of your forum for quite a while, so much info in here , I've been researching but never posted, time has come!

I do have a 2005 Panda 4x4 which i am intending to change already bought below parts:
a. Camshaft from a p75 (866)
b. 4-2-1 stock p75 exhaust manifold
c. Throttle body from a grande punto 1.4 8v

However i do have some questions which i would appreciate if you could answer before i start the project. You see this period i am tight on budget and if installation costs deviate from initial planning, the project cannot be implemented and this would be a pitty. So here it is...

1. Is the p75 866 cam a direct replacement, do i need to put the p75 shims to my engine and do i have to readjust the valves? what about the tension belts?
2. I do not see a cam sensor on the p75 head, therefore do i have to put my pulley to the 866 camshaft OR does the sensor reads from the cam itshelf and therefore cannot use it for my application? Is there a solution on that?
3. Will the consumption be increased and if so in what degree?
4. Is ECU reprogramming necessary? It would be nice if i could avoid it at the moment.

It would be great if you could enlighten me to the above questions. I really love my car and wish i had some more straight push up to 140km/h in order to be practical on the highways till i reach the province mountains!!

 

[The Beard]

Hi Fotme. As you haven't had a response yet, can I suggest that you go to the home page, scroll down until you get to the Tuning section and post your enquiry there instead. You might more answers there. Also, can you be specific in the details of the existing engine and what you want to achieve.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi there,

Hope you are well and loving your Pandas! <3

I have been a reader of your forum for quite a while, so much info in here , I've been researching but never posted, time has come!

I do have a 2005 Panda 4x4 which i am intending to change already bought below parts:
a. Camshaft from a p75 (866)
b. 4-2-1 stock p75 exhaust manifold
c. Throttle body from a grande punto 1.4 8v


1. Is the p75 866 cam a direct replacement, do i need to put the p75 shims to my engine and do i have to readjust the valves? what about the tension belts?
2. I do not see a cam sensor on the p75 head, therefore do i have to put my pulley to the 866 camshaft OR does the sensor reads from the cam itshelf and therefore cannot use it for my application? Is there a solution on that?
3. Will the consumption be increased and if so in what degree?
4. Is ECU reprogramming necessary? It would be nice if i could avoid it at the moment.

It would be great if you could enlighten me to the above questions. I really love my car and wish i had some more straight push up to 140km/h in order to be practical on the highways till i reach the province mountains!!

Hi, and welcome,
I'm afraid there has been very litte "tuning" info on the series 3 panda

apart from @Ringa and the supercharger..

post of your parts are regularly used in the Cinquecento upgrades - so look / SEARCH in the Cinq / Sei section,

I can at least say that YES fuel consumption WILL increase with any significant gain in power.!!

Charlie

 

[R1NGA]

Hi there,

Hope you are well and loving your Pandas! <3

I have been a reader of your forum for quite a while, so much info in here , I've been researching but never posted, time has come!

I do have a 2005 Panda 4x4 which i am intending to change already bought below parts:
a. Camshaft from a p75 (866)
b. 4-2-1 stock p75 exhaust manifold
c. Throttle body from a grande punto 1.4 8v

However i do have some questions which i would appreciate if you could answer before i start the project. You see this period i am tight on budget and if installation costs deviate from initial planning, the project cannot be implemented and this would be a pitty. So here it is...

1. Is the p75 866 cam a direct replacement, do i need to put the p75 shims to my engine and do i have to readjust the valves? what about the tension belts?
2. I do not see a cam sensor on the p75 head, therefore do i have to put my pulley to the 866 camshaft OR does the sensor reads from the cam itshelf and therefore cannot use it for my application? Is there a solution on that?
3. Will the consumption be increased and if so in what degree?
4. Is ECU reprogramming necessary? It would be nice if i could avoid it at the moment.

It would be great if you could enlighten me to the above questions. I really love my car and wish i had some more straight push up to 140km/h in order to be practical on the highways till i reach the province mountains!!

Ah, a chap after my own heart! Whilst I have had a lot of experience doing really silly things to my 1.2 4x4, I'm not sure I can 100% answer your specific questions, but I'll give it a go;

1) If you're just changing the cam, then you should stick with your existing cam follows as they are matched to your head. You can use the shims appropriate for your existing head, but you WILL have to check and adjust the valve clearances and you will have to effectively go through a cambelt change (in fact you'd be best off fitting a new one at the same time) and all that this entails in terms of timing marks and tensions, relative to your engine.

2) If your car has a cam position sensor then you should keep it in the mix. It will be a Hall Effect pickup and it will 'read' from teeth machined into the cam-sprocket itself. These may be just the normal teeth that mesh with the belt, or they may be specific to the sprocket on your engine. Inspect the two and the solution should be obvious. If there is a missing tooth (ie: used as a positioning mark) on your sprocket but not on the donor 866 unit, then you'll have to stick with yours. All timing marks should remain the same, as all you're changing is lift and duration, not fundamental position.

3) Consumption will be increased of course, as will performance. No such thing as a free lunch......!

4) Ideally get the ECU flashed and setup to work with your new cam and intake/exhaust mods. Go to someone who has a rolling road and the skills to map live - it's the only way to be sure. My stock 1.2 8v picked up 6bhp and 8torx with just a remap, so add cam, bigger throttle body and manifold and you will be looking at maybe +15-20bhp perhaps. Remember that you will probably need to lift the rev limiter too, as mine was calling time by 6000rpm and your cam will likely want more. BUT.....

..... only if you pay attention to the induction with a decent K&N filter in the stock box (as a minimum) or better, a decent cold-air intake setup, similar to the one I used on my supercharged project. Also make sure you deal with the rest of the exhaust system if you want to maximise the improvements. The stock exhaust is very small in diameter and not best for handling the increased revs that you'll use from time to time, so consider a custom made setup from one of the Powerflow/Longlife folks. If you need contact details, let me know.

And if you do go ahead, please report back here as well

 

[mozart]

Ah, a chap after my own heart! Whilst I have had a lot of experience doing really silly things to my 1.2 4x4, I'm not sure I can 100% answer your specific questions, but I'll give it a go;

1) If you're just changing the cam, then you should stick with your existing cam follows as they are matched to your head. You can use the shims appropriate for your existing head, but you WILL have to check and adjust the valve clearances and you will have to effectively go through a cambelt change (in fact you'd be best off fitting a new one at the same time) and all that this entails in terms of timing marks and tensions, relative to your engine.

2) If your car has a cam position sensor then you should keep it in the mix. It will be a Hall Effect pickup and it will 'read' from teeth machined into the cam-sprocket itself. These may be just the normal teeth that mesh with the belt, or they may be specific to the sprocket on your engine. Inspect the two and the solution should be obvious. If there is a missing tooth (ie: used as a positioning mark) on your sprocket but not on the donor 866 unit, then you'll have to stick with yours. All timing marks should remain the same, as all you're changing is lift and duration, not fundamental position.

3) Consumption will be increased of course, as will performance. No such thing as a free lunch......!

4) Ideally get the ECU flashed and setup to work with your new cam and intake/exhaust mods. Go to someone who has a rolling road and the skills to map live - it's the only way to be sure. My stock 1.2 8v picked up 6bhp and 8torx with just a remap, so add cam, bigger throttle body and manifold and you will be looking at maybe +15-20bhp perhaps. Remember that you will probably need to lift the rev limiter too, as mine was calling time by 6000rpm and your cam will likely want more. BUT.....

..... only if you pay attention to the induction with a decent K&N filter in the stock box (as a minimum) or better, a decent cold-air intake setup, similar to the one I used on my supercharged project. Also make sure you deal with the rest of the exhaust system if you want to maximise the improvements. The stock exhaust is very small in diameter and not best for handling the increased revs that you'll use from time to time, so consider a custom made setup from one of the Powerflow/Longlife folks. If you need contact details, let me know.

And if you do go ahead, please report back here as well

dear riga i also have a panda 4x4 climping 2006 i want to do small things like intake - back box -reprogram maby the stock cam reprofile ..can you tell that have you trye about tuning ? i have read that the 1.2 60cv didnt gain over 1 hp with reprograming ...the same with intake ..hav

 

[DaveMcT]

You can do what you like with filter and cat-back exhaust systems to achieve the sum total of nothing except the silly noise.

I have no idea if these have the correct flange for the Panda. If the fit is impossible, send it back for the cost of delivery. Alternatively, weld on additional metal, grind flat and re-drill the bolt holes to fit the car. The 1.2 60 is restricted by throttle body size and "manicat" that corks up the exhaust.

This https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=384039142711&_sacat=0 might fit and would need an underfloor cat after the flange. Talk to MIJ Exhaust in the West Midlands.

This looks like it might have a catalyst but for the price I suspect the box its empty. That said, sports cats often can't pass an MOT so go with a larger road cat under the floor.

Stainless Steel Performance Race 4-1 Exhaust Manifold for Fiat Punto 1.2 16v | eBay UK

Fiat Punto 1.2l 16V 80BHP 1999+ Sporting models. Stainless Steel Performance Decat Exhaust Manifold. High quality T-304 stainless steel. Straight-through design enabled to improve horsepower,torque and overall performance.

www.ebay.co.uk

None of these will work if you cannot weld stainless pipe. I do it with the correct rods and an ordinary welder but it's more work and all too easy to mess up and blow a hole through. I repaired my 100HP cat when the outlet pipe cracked and fell off. Better welding kit is a far better option.

 

[R1NGA]

Hi Mozart - As mentioned above, there's not a lot that you can do with the stock 1.2 60bhp engine, as it is restricted on all sides of the engine and won't pick up much at all without something serious like turbo/supercharging. My exhaust build was as described above, but was required to support the extra power from the Rotrex Supercharger conversion I was working on. FWIW, a remap of the stock setup before I embarked on the Rotrex project picked up 4bhp, which of course cannot really be felt. It was a more responsive drive afterwards though, but overall little real gain. A free-flow exhaust also sounds rubbish without a much higher gas flow rate, so I'd leave alone, service it properly and enjoy the great overall packaging of the 169 Panda 4x4!

 

[koalar]

Hi Mozart - As mentioned above, there's not a lot that you can do with the stock 1.2 60bhp engine, as it is restricted on all sides of the engine and won't pick up much at all without something serious like turbo/supercharging. My exhaust build was as described above, but was required to support the extra power from the Rotrex Supercharger conversion I was working on. FWIW, a remap of the stock setup before I embarked on the Rotrex project picked up 4bhp, which of course cannot really be felt. It was a more responsive drive afterwards though, but overall little real gain. A free-flow exhaust also sounds rubbish without a much higher gas flow rate, so I'd leave alone, service it properly and enjoy the great overall packaging of the 169 Panda 4x4!

Well said

people do race the 1.1 @ 150BHP or more. However thats not on the stock ECU, exhaust or cams. Probably over £2K in parts and useless on the road

in my opinion you need a faster car it would be better putting that £2k in to buying an Audi 4x4 or similar