Technical Fiat ducato 2001 2.8d engine swap

[Wrongmove]

No mine was the 2.8 rated at 122hp. :-

8140.43​

2799​

118 (87)/3600 122 (90)/3600​

270 N⋅m (199 lb⋅ft)/1800 285 N⋅m (210 lb⋅ft)/1800​

R4, DI, turbocharged, intercooled​

OHC/8​

This is yours according to wikipedia:-

8140.47​

2499​

116 PS (85 kW)/3800​

245 N⋅m (181 lb⋅ft)/2000​

R4, DI, turbocharged, intercooled​

OHC/8​

Yes can see the difference ... not sure what to do at the moment, i think il sell the punto grande..1.9 multijet as it is, its running just battered,
Claw some money in and if I'm going for the engine swap on the motorhome, get the best one i can get,
Local mechanics must have plenty of work as having no joy with any of them, i have put engines in to Nissan cabstars, and years ago on escort mk 1s etc,
Probably just take my time and do it myself, I've got an engine crane lift and also a forklift at my yard so all that is not so much of an issue.
Lack of knowledge, but sure il get there in the end,
The engine i have is running more or less as it was before now with the hose off at the ecu end. But if i put my foot down on the accelerator i get a small puff of dark smoke, and like a small end noise very briefly, other people that have been there at the time said they can not hear that but it doesn't sound right to me and I don't think i would be happy going out without a certain amount of trust in th engine...on edge all the time...

 

[bugsymike]

Yes can see the difference ... not sure what to do at the moment, i think il sell the punto grande..1.9 multijet as it is, its running just battered,
Claw some money in and if I'm going for the engine swap on the motorhome, get the best one i can get,
Local mechanics must have plenty of work as having no joy with any of them, i have put engines in to Nissan cabstars, and years ago on escort mk 1s etc,
Probably just take my time and do it myself, I've got an engine crane lift and also a forklift at my yard so all that is not so much of an issue.
Lack of knowledge, but sure il get there in the end,
The engine i have is running more or less as it was before now with the hose off at the ecu end. But if i put my foot down on the accelerator i get a small puff of dark smoke, and like a small end noise very briefly, other people that have been there at the time said they can not hear that but it doesn't sound right to me and I don't think i would be happy going out without a certain amount of trust in th engine...on edge all the time...

As you say if you take your time and have the tools to do the job, just take photos as you go along to help on return journey.
As that Sofim engine is same series albeit smaller cc it will be more powerful than what you have if you use the turbo and intercooler.
Many parts should swap over if lucky, just take photos of mountings and bell housing etc. as you don't want the duff gearbox if possible.
Some used different clutch operation, pull or push to release the clutch, but if lucky you should be able to use the clutch from your original engine on the doner to get around that side and use the doners manifolds / turbo and front exhaust section along with the intercooler and pipes so probably not use any of that ECU arrangement. All you should need will be a on off power supply for the solenoid, You may even be able to swing the alternator and starter out the way and reuse them on new doner engine so no need to change much wiring, possible just the temp and oil sensors.
From mechanics perspective swapping engines supplied by customers can be loads of grief so unless they are charging by the hour and not a fixed price for the job they are not likely to be interested, even nmore these days as it is old school, so unless it has an OBD port to tell them what is wrong many are stuffed.

 

[Wrongmove]

As you say if you take your time and have the tools to do the job, just take photos as you go along to help on return journey.
As that Sofim engine is same series albeit smaller cc it will be more powerful than what you have if you use the turbo and intercooler.
Many parts should swap over if lucky, just take photos of mountings and bell housing etc. as you don't want the duff gearbox if possible.
Some used different clutch operation, pull or push to release the clutch, but if lucky you should be able to use the clutch from your original engine on the doner to get around that side and use the doners manifolds / turbo and front exhaust section along with the intercooler and pipes so probably not use any of that ECU arrangement. All you should need will be a on off power supply for the solenoid, You may even be able to swing the alternator and starter out the way and reuse them on new doner engine so no need to change much wiring, possible just the temp and oil sensors.
From mechanics perspective swapping engines supplied by customers can be loads of grief so unless they are charging by the hour and not a fixed price for the job they are not likely to be interested, even nmore these days as it is old school, so unless it has an OBD port to tell them what is wrong many are stuffed.

Thank you for your reply,, I'm sure i will have to bend your ears(or eyes) some more but im going to give it a try, meant to be going to have a look on Tuesday ... hopefully all ok,
Will let you. Know the outcome..

 

[Wrongmove]

These are the photos with the engine cover off... any idea what sensor. That is in the middle of the hose? Thanks

 

[Communicator]

These are the photos with the engine cover off... any idea what sensor. That is in the middle of the hose? Thanks

You mean in photo IMG_0541 ? It makes me think oil vapour heater instead of sensor. If I am correect, then you should be able to trace one of the hoses to an NRV teeing into the air filter outlet.
Next photo shows two coolant temperature sensors at thermostat housing, but what are the two connectors immediately to right in the picture?

 

[Wrongmove]

You mean in photo IMG_0541 ? It makes me think oil vapour heater instead of sensor. If I am correect, then you should be able to trace one of the hoses to an NRV teeing into the air filter outlet.
Next photo shows two coolant temperature sensors at thermostat housing, but what are the two connectors immediately to right in the picture?

Yes sorry, i should have said what image i was referring to, you are right it is a vapour heater and i wondered why that section was warm..
The two connectors to the right of the temperature sensors. Are just plugged in to a rubber holder... could they be there in case a different engine was going to be used in production?..
The engine went back to running badly when i ran it yesterday, the only time it ran better is when i blanked the egr of altogether.
But it seemed to run way too hot..
That coupled with the fact that it is way too underpowered anyway i am going to change the engine, this one at 86hp, and as mike mentioned loaded with all egr parts, is very slow, especially with it not running as it should.
It still does the spluttering from the inlet if i remove the vacuum hoses from the egr completely and i can hear the egr valve working even with the pipes off... just don't get it...
Thanks for your reply... another component identified...

 

[Communicator]

Yes sorry, i should have said what image i was referring to, you are right it is a vapour heater and i wondered why that section was warm..
The two connectors to the right of the temperature sensors. Are just plugged in to a rubber holder... could they be there in case a different engine was going to be used in production?..
The engine went back to running badly when i ran it yesterday, the only time it ran better is when i blanked the egr of altogether.
But it seemed to run way too hot..
That coupled with the fact that it is way too underpowered anyway i am going to change the engine, this one at 86hp, and as mike mentioned loaded with all egr parts, is very slow, especially with it not running as it should.
It still does the spluttering from the inlet if i remove the vacuum hoses from the egr completely and i can hear the egr valve working even with the pipes off... just don't get it...
Thanks for your reply... another component identified...

Perhaps the parked connectors are OBD ports? When common rail engines were fitted to the x230 in 2000, the OBD port was a 3 pole connector with 2 wires connected, close to the air filter. Your ECU fitted to control the EGR system would account for one port. I have seen mention of a second port for ABS, or perhaps airbags. However the latter would be more likely be one mentioned in a much earlier thread as being in the glove box area, and could be a third port. I am stretching my memory here.

 

[Wrongmove]

Perhaps the parked connectors are OBD ports? When common rail engines were fitted to the x230 in 2000, the OBD port was a 3 pole connector with 2 wires connected, close to the air filter. Your ECU fitted to control the EGR system would account for one port. I have seen mention of a second port for ABS, or perhaps airbags. However the latter would be more likely be one mentioned in a much earlier thread as being in the glove box area, and could be a third port. I am stretching my memory here.

I initially thought that this one was for the obd port, i did purchase two separate adapters but they did not fit, i did try them on those two. Parked ones but it didn't fit there neither ..

 

[Wrongmove]

I had my engine delivered today 2.5tdi... i have also found a mechanic to swap the engine, but when i had a close look at the difference i noticed that my original engine has four glow plugs (8140.63) and this one looks to have the older flame start (8140.47) 1996
Also my original one has a coded key, and has electrical wires going in to the injector pump where as the replacement engine doesn't have these wires .. just has fuel cut off valve..
Is this likely to cause problems on fitting it... ?? Would anyone have any advice on this? Thanks

 

[bugsymike]

I had my engine delivered today 2.5tdi... i have also found a mechanic to swap the engine, but when i had a close look at the difference i noticed that my original engine has four glow plugs (8140.63) and this one looks to have the older flame start (8140.47) 1996
Also my original one has a coded key, and has electrical wires going in to the injector pump where as the replacement engine doesn't have these wires .. just has fuel cut off valve..
Is this likely to cause problems on fitting it... ?? Would anyone have any advice on this? Thanks

I think your old one was indirect injection hence needed the 4 heater plugs.
Unless very cold where you are the flame start may never be needed, but if so it needs a fuel supply, usually from the leakoff/return pipes and an 12 volt supply through a relay possibly. If you see the photo of engine in my boat the white wire is for the flame device and I never used it in four years, engine always started instantly.
Re the cut off valve it just needs a 12 volt supply when ignition is switched on to open the valve, that turns off with key so engine stops.
Not over theft proof, but a lot less trouble than the alternatives.
I assume turbo all there so you will need to sort out intercooler and hoses, but it will run without , just not max. power.

 

[Wrongmove]

Yes i got the turbo, intercooler and everything else attached,, img.0536 is of my original engine..it looks brand new compared to the one I've just bought... anyway the flame start has the pipework attached but unfortunately the leak off/return pipe has been cut, hopefully my original one will fit... i also got plenty of spares with it (some I do not need)... the seller gave me everything he had with the deal, even the keys and hand book....
The gearbox clutch lever looks like a different set up to my original one though,, i will start taking it off the sub frame tomorrow as as seen in photos its all still attached..

 

[bugsymike]

Yes i got the turbo, intercooler and everything else attached,, img.0536 is of my original engine..it looks brand new compared to the one I've just bought... anyway the flame start has the pipework attached but unfortunately the leak off/return pipe has been cut, hopefully my original one will fit... i also got plenty of spares with it (some I do not need)... the seller gave me everything he had with the deal, even the keys and hand book....
The gearbox clutch lever looks like a different set up to my original one though,, i will start taking it off the sub frame tomorrow as as seen in photos its all still attached..

Replacement does look like it has been standing for a while to say the least.
You did say you had seen a video of it running?
If it looks like it will do the job, I would use your alternator, fit a new cam belt kit, check the water pump, change the oil and filter etc.
Try and send a photo of the clutch operation side , release arm, cable pull direction of both your and the replacement.
There are two different types of operation and as you are using your gearbox (you mentioned 5th gear dodgy on replacement engine) it may be necessary to change clutch/flywheel/release bearing etc.
Oil all the fixings to help with rebuild.

 

[Communicator]

I had my engine delivered today 2.5tdi... i have also found a mechanic to swap the engine, but when i had a close look at the difference i noticed that my original engine has four glow plugs (8140.63) and this one looks to have the older flame start (8140.47) 1996
Also my original one has a coded key, and has electrical wires going in to the injector pump where as the replacement engine doesn't have these wires .. just has fuel cut off valve..
Is this likely to cause problems on fitting it... ?? Would anyone have any advice on this? Thanks

The flame starter was used until 2006, as that is what my 2006 2.8jtd has. Ideally to use the flame starter you will need either an appropriate controller as fitted to non common rail engines, or a jury rig of switches.

To confirm what @bugsymike ike has already stated, the injection pump on old engine will hve three wires connecting to it. One of these will be an ignition switched supply, which will need connecting to the "stop" solenoid on the replacement engine. The security implications are a different matter, but transferring the security electronics from old to replacement engine would probably be impracticable.

 

[Wrongmove]

Replacement does look like it has been standing for a while to say the least.
You did say you had seen a video of it running?
If it looks like it will do the job, I would use your alternator, fit a new cam belt kit, check the water pump, change the oil and filter etc.
Try and send a photo of the clutch operation side , release arm, cable pull direction of both your and the replacement.
There are two different types of operation and as you are using your gearbox (you mentioned 5th gear dodgy on replacement engine) it may be necessary to change clutch/flywheel/release bearing etc.
Oil all the fixings to help with rebuild.

I dismantled the frame/steering and other bits away from the engine today, i also checked the oil.. turned the engine over by hand a few times and connected the starter.. ran a wire to the stop solenoid, filled a jar with diesel and it started instantly, sounded better than it looked but i gave it a good clean, looks better than it did now...unfortunately the exhaust manifold has some damage....probably not easy to find..
And typical of my luck... the clutch systems you mentioned are different....my original one has a lever,,, and the replacement is one of the pull ones.... i was planning on taking the gearbox off of the replacement one today but i read something about needing to drill a hole in the bell housing to get the lever arm pin out...so i left that part for now..
There are a few differences i have noticed, the thermostat housing on my original engine has two sensors .. the replacement only one, but i think i can change the housing over as the rest looks the same, the coolant bottle on my original engine has two pipes going in to the top..the replacement only has one... just minor things so far hopefully,, except for one.. the exhaust, apart from the manifold damage looks quite a lot thicker than my original one.. the seller gave me the section that connects to the manifold but given the length of the pipe it will not fit...my one has a small silencer quite close to the exhaust manifold ... not sure what to do about that yet...
As you mentioned in your reply i think i will have to change the clutch etc over to the replacement one...also i will have all the filters, oil, timing belt changed while I'm doing this... the previous owner of my motorhome had a reconditioned gearbox put in in 2021 (i believe it was that year)
So i would have thought he had the clutch replaced at the same time, i have the receipts so will check...
He paid nearly 2k for the gearbox and extra for fitting...so i would hope it was changed..
Have found a mechanic that will hopefully do the change over now but still need to get everything else sorted 1st..
I did take a video of the engine starting today but it is too large to upload..

 

[Wrongmove]

The flame starter was used until 2006, as that is what my 2006 2.8jtd has. Ideally to use the flame starter you will need either an appropriate controller as fitted to non common rail engines, or a jury rig of switches.

To confirm what @bugsymike ike has already stated, the injection pump on old engine will hve three wires connecting to it. One of these will be an ignition switched supply, which will need connecting to the "stop" solenoid on the replacement engine. The security implications are a different matter, but transferring the security electronics from old to replacement engine would probably be impracticable.

Hello
Thanks for your reply, i have got all the loom with the engine so i may be able to figure out the part that was connected to the flame starter,
I found one plug that was coming from the stop solenoid with two wires.. and another going to the bottom part of the pump...wax something, sorry can't remember the name of it... I'm not going to bother attempting to change anything over on the pump to try and get the security side working, i have got a remote control cut out switch that i could put on,
The exhaust system not being the same is a bit of a concern and a few other bits but will get there eventually..
One part i find a bit strange is having to drill the bell housing to get the clutch lever out?.. I've never heard of that before... have to do some more reading on that one

 

[bugsymike]

Hello
Thanks for your reply, i have got all the loom with the engine so i may be able to figure out the part that was connected to the flame starter,
I found one plug that was coming from the stop solenoid with two wires.. and another going to the bottom part of the pump...wax something, sorry can't remember the name of it... I'm not going to bother attempting to change anything over on the pump to try and get the security side working, i have got a remote control cut out switch that i could put on,
The exhaust system not being the same is a bit of a concern and a few other bits but will get there eventually..
One part i find a bit strange is having to drill the bell housing to get the clutch lever out?.. I've never heard of that before... have to do some more reading on that one

Promising that it starts easily, not ideal about the ex manifold, if it was me I would be tempted to run it with that as long as you don't get violent with it and the rest of the system is well supported. It is held to the front pipe with long nuts and bolts and springs, the conical shaped asbestos type ring allows movement whilst still sealing the exhaust.
If you manage to locate an exhaust manifold you then have to worry if that turbo is any good , chances are none of the bolts will want to release, so may be extra work.
You don't want to use your existing frong "silencer" as I think that will be a restriction, also turbo engines are not as loud as non turbo.
As you have the front section of doner exhaust I would be tempted to sleeve and clamp it or weld it to your original centre exhaust if possible.
Re the clutch, on the Iveco version of the pull clutch the release arm once cable removed would slide clear of the release bearing which made life easier.
However I did a pull off type one on a 55 plate Citroen Relay 2.8 Sofim for a customer on my back outside his industrial unit in the snow when I was nearly sixty, at the time not even the Citroen Dealer had the clutch pivot extractor tool, which the the correct way to do those clutchs, there is a circlip which from memory is removed and the tool fits tightly in that groove then the extractor pulls the shaft up out of the bellhousing so no need to drill holes etc.
In my case as clutch was being replaced, my customer was happy for me to crowbar the release bearing out of the pull off clutch pressure plate by levering the bell housing away, I was careful and the only damage was to the parts being replaced.
I have heard of the drilling method through bellhousing and then a drift is used to punch the release arm pivot shaft up and out, but never seen it done.
I was hoping your photos would show that area of clutch release operation.
Hopefully if all interchangeable you will fit your old good flywheel if necessary along with your good clutch and the release bearing in your good original gearbox.

 

[Wrongmove]

Promising that it starts easily, not ideal about the ex manifold, if it was me I would be tempted to run it with that as long as you don't get violent with it and the rest of the system is well supported. It is held to the front pipe with long nuts and bolts and springs, the conical shaped asbestos type ring allows movement whilst still sealing the exhaust.
If you manage to locate an exhaust manifold you then have to worry if that turbo is any good , chances are none of the bolts will want to release, so may be extra work.
You don't want to use your existing frong "silencer" as I think that will be a restriction, also turbo engines are not as loud as non turbo.
As you have the front section of doner exhaust I would be tempted to sleeve and clamp it or weld it to your original centre exhaust if possible.
Re the clutch, on the Iveco version of the pull clutch the release arm once cable removed would slide clear of the release bearing which made life easier.
However I did a pull off type one on a 55 plate Citroen Relay 2.8 Sofim for a customer on my back outside his industrial unit in the snow when I was nearly sixty, at the time not even the Citroen Dealer had the clutch pivot extractor tool, which the the correct way to do those clutchs, there is a circlip which from memory is removed and the tool fits tightly in that groove then the extractor pulls the shaft up out of the bellhousing so no need to drill holes etc.
In my case as clutch was being replaced, my customer was happy for me to crowbar the release bearing out of the pull off clutch pressure plate by levering the bell housing away, I was careful and the only damage was to the parts being replaced.
I have heard of the drilling method through bellhousing and then a drift is used to punch the release arm pivot shaft up and out, but never seen it done.
I was hoping your photos would show that area of clutch release operation.
Hopefully if all interchangeable you will fit your old good flywheel if necessary along with your good clutch and the release bearing in your good original gearbox.

The part of the exhaust manifold is removable from the turbo but as you say I don't think it will unbolt easily...i did get a slight turn on all of the bolts today but only a very slight turn, I didn't push it too much as believed they would snap.. i think i will use it as it is as you suggested..
Ironically i just said to my son i could bypass the 1st silencer and fit a sleeve over the existing exhaust pipe
i also just looked online and spotted the removal tool (its on sale from b&q!!)
I still can't see how it would work to be honest,, i will take some photos in the morning and upload them...and of the release arms...
There is a hole in the bell housing on one side in line with the pin... around 20mm in diameter, there is a plastic grommet type fitting in the hole and in the centre is a smaller one... around 8mm... I don't see any easy way of getting this grommet out though

 

[bugsymike]

The part of the exhaust manifold is removable from the turbo but as you say I don't think it will unbolt easily...i did get a slight turn on all of the bolts today but only a very slight turn, I didn't push it too much as believed they would snap.. i think i will use it as it is as you suggested..
Ironically i just said to my son i could bypass the 1st silencer and fit a sleeve over the existing exhaust pipe
i also just looked online and spotted the removal tool (its on sale from b&q!!)
I still can't see how it would work to be honest,, i will take some photos in the morning and upload them...and of the release arms...
There is a hole in the bell housing on one side in line with the pin... around 20mm in diameter, there is a plastic grommet type fitting in the hole and in the centre is a smaller one... around 8mm... I don't see any easy way of getting this grommet out though

Re the clutch, do you think someone has already bodged a way in?
"i also just looked online and spotted the removal tool (its on sale from b&q!!)" I thought all they sold was tins of paint and barbeques at sill prices.

 

[Wrongmove]

Re the clutch, do you think someone has already bodged a way in?
"i also just looked online and spotted the removal tool (its on sale from b&q!!)" I thought all they sold was tins of paint and barbeques at sill prices.

No I don't think someone drilled it..i did see another one on YouTube earlier that had the same thing...he screwed what looked like a stud in to the clutch fork pin and used a piece of oversize pipe and a nut on the end to draw the pin out...and his one had the same grommet...
B&q would have ben the last place i would have looked

 

[bugsymike]

No I don't think someone drilled it..i did see another one on YouTube earlier that had the same thing...he screwed what looked like a stud in to the clutch fork pin and used a piece of oversize pipe and a nut on the end to draw the pin out...and his one had the same grommet...
B&q would have ben the last place i would have looked

It was a long time ago, it may have been tapped for a bolt and the circlip just used to keep in the pivot shaft in place, as I said it wasn't in ideal conditions and snowing at the time, the things you do to feed the family.