newfiatuser
New member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2012
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My mum's got a September 2009 Doblo 1.3 multijet that's done about 25,000 miles.
It was serviced by the Fiat dealer who she bought it off (let us say "Dealer A") in late June 2011, the service being done in early June 2011 (at about 22,000) before she bought it, and by a different Fiat dealer ("Dealer B") at the end of July 2011 (at about 22,500 miles). Both dealers recorded that they changed the oil and filter. The reason it was serviced twice so close is because mum was unaware that the supplying garage had just done a service as the service book was missing, however they have since sent a replacment service book, where they have stamped for the June 2011 service and also stamped retrospectively and on behalf of yet another Fiat dealer ("Dealer C") who did a service at around 12,000 miles in July 2010.
A couple of weeks ago (in June 2012), the oil degradation warning light came on. Mum was just a mile from home and besides it was Saturday night so she went home. Incidentally, the nearest Fiat dealer (who is Dealer B) is about 50 miles away, and there is another slightly further one, let us say "Dealer D" (!). She hasn't used the car since, we have been using my car since I am staying with her, and as I began to fear that something was not quite right. I did not just want to have especially Dealer B, but really any garage, deal with the issue without further investigation and knowledge gathering on my part so I ordered an ELM interface and downloaded FiatECUScan software, and started reading these forums!
Using the above tools I confirmed that the "Distance to next Oil change" is reading "0.0km", and the "Oil degradation level" is reading "0.000%" (I believe this means the car believes the oil to be totally degraded.)
I did also find that the "oil change counter" value reads only "1". Also I read that "Odometer at last Oil change" gave a figure near 12,000 miles, but that this figure was about 500 miles adrift of the recorded mileage at the first service of the car with Dealer C. I have read on either here or the fiatscan forums the "Odometer at last oil change" reading is to be ignored as it is not correct with FiatECUScan software. However despite the discrepancy of 500 miles it would make most sense if the last time it had been reset was at the first service the car had, with Dealer C. If I cannot trust this figure then it seems I don't know who out of Dealer A, B, or C has not
reset the oil change counter while at the same time asserting that they changed the oil, but at least two have not (although if Dealer C had not then someone had been driving around for a few thousand miles with the oil light on until it was serviced by dealer A at 22000 miles, as surely it would have come on at 20,000 miles?? So I don't definitely know whether the car thinks the oil is degraded after 13,000 miles or 3000 miles of use, but I suspect the former.
Further background information that might be relevant here:
-Around Dec 2011 I reminded my mum to check the oil level in the car. She checked it and thought the level was OK but I also said that if it did ever need topping up it would be best to use the same kind of oil Dealer B had used when doing the oil change. She phoned up Dealer B and they said they had used Texaco. She tried to get some Texaco oil but they didn't have any in two garages she tried. She phoned back Dealer B and they said "you can't get Texaco oil in Scotland" (Dealer B is in Scotland BTW just to make it clear!). Mum asked what she should do if she needed to top up and Dealer B said she could take it to any Fiat Dealer and they would check for her and top up if necessary.
- Around January 2012 mum came down to England (where I live) and I checked the oil level. I thought the level was OK (perhaps if anything overfull, but hard to tell as usual with dipsticks, when it is over), I did comment that I thought the oil was surprisingly dirty considering it was supposed to have been changed in July (granted I don't have much experience with diesel engines).
-While in England before mum set off for Scotland we went to yet another Fiat dealer (Dealer E!) to get some oil just to keep in the car in case it did need topping up, and I went into the parts department and the guy brought out some Selenia after I gave him the reg no and I said, "will this be OK to mix with Texaco?" (I couldn't be any more speific as "Texaco" is all mum had got from them) as that's what Dealer B had put in, and then he was like "no you shouldn't mix them", so we didn't get any oil to keep in car. He also said that Dealer B should have used Selenia oil.
-After phoning up Dealer B to mention that Dealer E had said that they wouldn't advise mixing oils so we couldn't have a Fiat Dealer top up the car as they had previously suggested (mum didn't mention that Dealer E had said that Dealer B should have used Selenia), because dealer E had said the oils shouldn't be mixed, Dealer B said "Which garage said that? That's rubbish oils can be mixed".
-On the Fiat service sheet of Dealer B the car is down as a 1.4 petrol, and I notice that box ticking has been done that suggests that DPF filter is not applicable, even though the car has a DPF. Specifically on the section where it says "Every 12,000 miles "Replace engine and oil and oil filter (versions without DPF (+)", has been ticked, whereas an "NA" had been put next to "Replace Engine oil and oil filter (Multijet versions with DPF (**) (or every 24 months)".
-The printout from the service database of Dealer C (obtained for mum by Dealer A via email communications with Dealer C), indicates that semi-synthetic oil was used (no further level of detail about the oil).
-When I used FiatECUScan I noted that the DPF was 89% clogged and the "Odometer at last DPF replacment" (Which I understand should read "Odometer at last DPF regeneration") read about 25,000 miles. Also both "Odometer at last spontaneous regeneration" and "Odometer at last forced regeneration" read about 120 miles.
-Roughly 3000 miles have been covered in almost a year since the last service. However while one may think this is classic high demands on oil/DPF with low mileage scenario, in fact the use has been regular once a week on rural roads at national speed limit with no traffic lights and very little traffic (so no idling at standstill etc) for about 12 miles just to get into town, and then back (and knowing about DPF issues I have instructed mum that she needs to open up the car on these trips as well!). On top of this there have been a few long motorway journeys to get out of the area, with perhaps some town driving on these trips.
-Looking at how dirty the oil is currently (and it smells of soot and diesel), I thought it might be best to get the oil changed even if all that has happened is that Dealer B and A have just not managed to reset the oil change counter (having seen the state of the oil in Jan though I suspect this is not all that has happened, I suspect at least the last dealer didn't change the oil or filter, or at least used wildly inappropriate oil). Mum phoned up Dealer D to ask them what kind of oil they use in an oil change - they said Shell!
-I note that the oil recommended for this model of Doblo in the manual is Selenia WR. I also note that the Selenia site now recommends Selenia W.R. PE, which is actually a different viscosity to that receommended in the manual being 5w-30 instead of 5w-40. The manual seems to make no reference to the DPF either in terms of precautions when choosing oil or in terms of driving and allowing full regeneration cylces. The logic of using a low-mid ash oil C1, C2 or C3 seems to me to make sense for a car with a DPF. From the experiences above it is clear to me that asking a Fiat dealer about this issue is not necessarily going to yield a satisfactory answer. I think it highly likely that the dealers have just put in whatever oil was at hand. However even Fiat have not in my opinion given clear enough guidance as to what kind of oil should be used in relation to cars with DPFs.
-Yesterday mum phoned up Fiat customer services to explain that this warning light came on. She also mentioned the car had been serviced at a Fiat dealer at the end of July 2012 and that she didn't think this should be happening. She also mentioned that the oil was dirty and smelled of diesel. Fiat explained that the warranty was now with the dealer. They agreed she shouldn't drive the car and said that she would have to arrange for a recovery company to pick up the car and take it to the nearest dealer (they indicated Dealer B). When mum explained that this was the dealer that had done the last service and she didn't have confidence in them, Fiat CS gave her the details of Dealer D (of course we already knew these, but I suppose it did just confirm that Fiat are still recommending them as dealers, and mum was too polite to shut the CS rep up!).
-Also mum phoned up Dealer A on my recommendation to check that the 3rd year warranty had in fact been transferred. Fortunately it seems to have been although we await the documentation. She also mentioned this oil light issue and they said "oh they've probably just forgotten to reset the oil change light". (No mention of how this might be a serious issue as some on this forum seem to think it is.) (Obviously I suspect that neither Dealer A nor Dealer B in fact reset the oil change counter.)
I would be interested to hear people's opinions on the service we have received from Fiat and their network of dealers. I do notice that people often come on here saying, "get this done properly, go to Fiat, don't cut corners for the sake of a few quid, it is essential ECU counter be reset when changing oil" etc etc. I present this story to show that you can try and do "the right thing" and still end up totally confused and in reality your car not be serviced to spec. Also this is not just one dealer!
Going forward, do people agree that it would be unwise to drive the car with the DPF clogging at 89% and the oil change light on, and the oil actually in bad condition (my opinion)? Either way, whether we have to pay for them to come out or whether we risk driving I am thinking of paying for a diagnostic test and printout (probably by Dealer D) at least to prove that the oil change counter has not been reset by at least two of the three dealers that have done an oil change (hopefully using Fiat software the odometer reading at last reset can be recorded reliably too, so we know which two of the three it was). I just want this in case there is a subsequent DPF problem or other problem relating to the oil change counter not being reset. Assuming we could prove that it had not been reset since the first service it would also provide an argument against driving style being the reason the oil is bad and the DPF is clogged, because the car would have assumed that 13,000 miles had passed and that is not too bad a figure. (? not entirely sure about this logic though.)
Proving the poor condition of the oil is as a result of either the wrong type of oil being used or even the oil or filter not having been changed at the last service, might prove to be more difficult, is there a test that I could ask Dealer D to perform (would they have to really know their S**T??)? However, if the type of oil used could be identified as well this might well give support if we later have a DPF issue as well as an engine issue, as the wrong type of oil can affect the DPF?
Having said the above, if you do not drive with the oil change warning light on, I assume that there should not be any damage to the DPF caused by the oil warning light not having been reset (e.g. it doesn't reduce the frequency of DPF regenerations as the oil quality approaches zero).
Anyway, back covering aside, I suspect what needs doing to get the car driveable again is the oil counter to be reset, and also an oil change would be prudent given the actual condition of the oil. But if I get Dealer D to do that they use Shell instead of Selenia, and anyway I'm not clear on which Selenia would be best . .. although I think a ACEA C2 or C3, or even better C1, oil would be best, regardless of fiat spec (and it doesn't sound like dealer D pay that much attention to detail).
Had there not been some warranty and evidential issues I would have just changed the oil and filter myself and reset the light and taken the car for a good blast hoping that the DPF would clear, and that not too much damage had been done to the engine by oil in bad condition (probably all would have been OK!) Instead hours fighting with garages and customer service lay ahead I suspect, because we decided we should "do it right!", just in case there are further problems.
(Apart from above, I've driven the car and it's an amazingly good drive for a 1.3 with such big body!)
It was serviced by the Fiat dealer who she bought it off (let us say "Dealer A") in late June 2011, the service being done in early June 2011 (at about 22,000) before she bought it, and by a different Fiat dealer ("Dealer B") at the end of July 2011 (at about 22,500 miles). Both dealers recorded that they changed the oil and filter. The reason it was serviced twice so close is because mum was unaware that the supplying garage had just done a service as the service book was missing, however they have since sent a replacment service book, where they have stamped for the June 2011 service and also stamped retrospectively and on behalf of yet another Fiat dealer ("Dealer C") who did a service at around 12,000 miles in July 2010.
A couple of weeks ago (in June 2012), the oil degradation warning light came on. Mum was just a mile from home and besides it was Saturday night so she went home. Incidentally, the nearest Fiat dealer (who is Dealer B) is about 50 miles away, and there is another slightly further one, let us say "Dealer D" (!). She hasn't used the car since, we have been using my car since I am staying with her, and as I began to fear that something was not quite right. I did not just want to have especially Dealer B, but really any garage, deal with the issue without further investigation and knowledge gathering on my part so I ordered an ELM interface and downloaded FiatECUScan software, and started reading these forums!
Using the above tools I confirmed that the "Distance to next Oil change" is reading "0.0km", and the "Oil degradation level" is reading "0.000%" (I believe this means the car believes the oil to be totally degraded.)
I did also find that the "oil change counter" value reads only "1". Also I read that "Odometer at last Oil change" gave a figure near 12,000 miles, but that this figure was about 500 miles adrift of the recorded mileage at the first service of the car with Dealer C. I have read on either here or the fiatscan forums the "Odometer at last oil change" reading is to be ignored as it is not correct with FiatECUScan software. However despite the discrepancy of 500 miles it would make most sense if the last time it had been reset was at the first service the car had, with Dealer C. If I cannot trust this figure then it seems I don't know who out of Dealer A, B, or C has not
reset the oil change counter while at the same time asserting that they changed the oil, but at least two have not (although if Dealer C had not then someone had been driving around for a few thousand miles with the oil light on until it was serviced by dealer A at 22000 miles, as surely it would have come on at 20,000 miles?? So I don't definitely know whether the car thinks the oil is degraded after 13,000 miles or 3000 miles of use, but I suspect the former.
Further background information that might be relevant here:
-Around Dec 2011 I reminded my mum to check the oil level in the car. She checked it and thought the level was OK but I also said that if it did ever need topping up it would be best to use the same kind of oil Dealer B had used when doing the oil change. She phoned up Dealer B and they said they had used Texaco. She tried to get some Texaco oil but they didn't have any in two garages she tried. She phoned back Dealer B and they said "you can't get Texaco oil in Scotland" (Dealer B is in Scotland BTW just to make it clear!). Mum asked what she should do if she needed to top up and Dealer B said she could take it to any Fiat Dealer and they would check for her and top up if necessary.
- Around January 2012 mum came down to England (where I live) and I checked the oil level. I thought the level was OK (perhaps if anything overfull, but hard to tell as usual with dipsticks, when it is over), I did comment that I thought the oil was surprisingly dirty considering it was supposed to have been changed in July (granted I don't have much experience with diesel engines).
-While in England before mum set off for Scotland we went to yet another Fiat dealer (Dealer E!) to get some oil just to keep in the car in case it did need topping up, and I went into the parts department and the guy brought out some Selenia after I gave him the reg no and I said, "will this be OK to mix with Texaco?" (I couldn't be any more speific as "Texaco" is all mum had got from them) as that's what Dealer B had put in, and then he was like "no you shouldn't mix them", so we didn't get any oil to keep in car. He also said that Dealer B should have used Selenia oil.
-After phoning up Dealer B to mention that Dealer E had said that they wouldn't advise mixing oils so we couldn't have a Fiat Dealer top up the car as they had previously suggested (mum didn't mention that Dealer E had said that Dealer B should have used Selenia), because dealer E had said the oils shouldn't be mixed, Dealer B said "Which garage said that? That's rubbish oils can be mixed".
-On the Fiat service sheet of Dealer B the car is down as a 1.4 petrol, and I notice that box ticking has been done that suggests that DPF filter is not applicable, even though the car has a DPF. Specifically on the section where it says "Every 12,000 miles "Replace engine and oil and oil filter (versions without DPF (+)", has been ticked, whereas an "NA" had been put next to "Replace Engine oil and oil filter (Multijet versions with DPF (**) (or every 24 months)".
-The printout from the service database of Dealer C (obtained for mum by Dealer A via email communications with Dealer C), indicates that semi-synthetic oil was used (no further level of detail about the oil).
-When I used FiatECUScan I noted that the DPF was 89% clogged and the "Odometer at last DPF replacment" (Which I understand should read "Odometer at last DPF regeneration") read about 25,000 miles. Also both "Odometer at last spontaneous regeneration" and "Odometer at last forced regeneration" read about 120 miles.
-Roughly 3000 miles have been covered in almost a year since the last service. However while one may think this is classic high demands on oil/DPF with low mileage scenario, in fact the use has been regular once a week on rural roads at national speed limit with no traffic lights and very little traffic (so no idling at standstill etc) for about 12 miles just to get into town, and then back (and knowing about DPF issues I have instructed mum that she needs to open up the car on these trips as well!). On top of this there have been a few long motorway journeys to get out of the area, with perhaps some town driving on these trips.
-Looking at how dirty the oil is currently (and it smells of soot and diesel), I thought it might be best to get the oil changed even if all that has happened is that Dealer B and A have just not managed to reset the oil change counter (having seen the state of the oil in Jan though I suspect this is not all that has happened, I suspect at least the last dealer didn't change the oil or filter, or at least used wildly inappropriate oil). Mum phoned up Dealer D to ask them what kind of oil they use in an oil change - they said Shell!
-I note that the oil recommended for this model of Doblo in the manual is Selenia WR. I also note that the Selenia site now recommends Selenia W.R. PE, which is actually a different viscosity to that receommended in the manual being 5w-30 instead of 5w-40. The manual seems to make no reference to the DPF either in terms of precautions when choosing oil or in terms of driving and allowing full regeneration cylces. The logic of using a low-mid ash oil C1, C2 or C3 seems to me to make sense for a car with a DPF. From the experiences above it is clear to me that asking a Fiat dealer about this issue is not necessarily going to yield a satisfactory answer. I think it highly likely that the dealers have just put in whatever oil was at hand. However even Fiat have not in my opinion given clear enough guidance as to what kind of oil should be used in relation to cars with DPFs.
-Yesterday mum phoned up Fiat customer services to explain that this warning light came on. She also mentioned the car had been serviced at a Fiat dealer at the end of July 2012 and that she didn't think this should be happening. She also mentioned that the oil was dirty and smelled of diesel. Fiat explained that the warranty was now with the dealer. They agreed she shouldn't drive the car and said that she would have to arrange for a recovery company to pick up the car and take it to the nearest dealer (they indicated Dealer B). When mum explained that this was the dealer that had done the last service and she didn't have confidence in them, Fiat CS gave her the details of Dealer D (of course we already knew these, but I suppose it did just confirm that Fiat are still recommending them as dealers, and mum was too polite to shut the CS rep up!).
-Also mum phoned up Dealer A on my recommendation to check that the 3rd year warranty had in fact been transferred. Fortunately it seems to have been although we await the documentation. She also mentioned this oil light issue and they said "oh they've probably just forgotten to reset the oil change light". (No mention of how this might be a serious issue as some on this forum seem to think it is.) (Obviously I suspect that neither Dealer A nor Dealer B in fact reset the oil change counter.)
I would be interested to hear people's opinions on the service we have received from Fiat and their network of dealers. I do notice that people often come on here saying, "get this done properly, go to Fiat, don't cut corners for the sake of a few quid, it is essential ECU counter be reset when changing oil" etc etc. I present this story to show that you can try and do "the right thing" and still end up totally confused and in reality your car not be serviced to spec. Also this is not just one dealer!
Going forward, do people agree that it would be unwise to drive the car with the DPF clogging at 89% and the oil change light on, and the oil actually in bad condition (my opinion)? Either way, whether we have to pay for them to come out or whether we risk driving I am thinking of paying for a diagnostic test and printout (probably by Dealer D) at least to prove that the oil change counter has not been reset by at least two of the three dealers that have done an oil change (hopefully using Fiat software the odometer reading at last reset can be recorded reliably too, so we know which two of the three it was). I just want this in case there is a subsequent DPF problem or other problem relating to the oil change counter not being reset. Assuming we could prove that it had not been reset since the first service it would also provide an argument against driving style being the reason the oil is bad and the DPF is clogged, because the car would have assumed that 13,000 miles had passed and that is not too bad a figure. (? not entirely sure about this logic though.)
Proving the poor condition of the oil is as a result of either the wrong type of oil being used or even the oil or filter not having been changed at the last service, might prove to be more difficult, is there a test that I could ask Dealer D to perform (would they have to really know their S**T??)? However, if the type of oil used could be identified as well this might well give support if we later have a DPF issue as well as an engine issue, as the wrong type of oil can affect the DPF?
Having said the above, if you do not drive with the oil change warning light on, I assume that there should not be any damage to the DPF caused by the oil warning light not having been reset (e.g. it doesn't reduce the frequency of DPF regenerations as the oil quality approaches zero).
Anyway, back covering aside, I suspect what needs doing to get the car driveable again is the oil counter to be reset, and also an oil change would be prudent given the actual condition of the oil. But if I get Dealer D to do that they use Shell instead of Selenia, and anyway I'm not clear on which Selenia would be best . .. although I think a ACEA C2 or C3, or even better C1, oil would be best, regardless of fiat spec (and it doesn't sound like dealer D pay that much attention to detail).
Had there not been some warranty and evidential issues I would have just changed the oil and filter myself and reset the light and taken the car for a good blast hoping that the DPF would clear, and that not too much damage had been done to the engine by oil in bad condition (probably all would have been OK!) Instead hours fighting with garages and customer service lay ahead I suspect, because we decided we should "do it right!", just in case there are further problems.
(Apart from above, I've driven the car and it's an amazingly good drive for a 1.3 with such big body!)
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