EV Charging

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EV Charging

Post #39 of this thread
" poor use of granny charger I admit."

Robert G8RPI.

Didn’t even make sense in the context of what MEP posted but as always clutching at straws totally unable to admit your mistakes not matter how massive. I will leave it there I can see you’re a man without any integrity whatsoever and so can everyone else now.
 
(NOTE TO READERS - I've corrected a factor of 10 error in my original post)

Not wanting to get dragged into this but I thought some vehicle registration facts may help calm things down.

In 2020 2.1 million new vehicles were registered down 27% on 2019 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/985555/vehicle-licensing-statistics-2020.pdf

Now let's assume when all EV is the only option here in the UK (ignore hydrogen) then it would be reasonable to assume new all EV registration will be 2.0 million? (lower still as people use public etc.)

Also let us *assume* that these all have 60kWh batteries. (216MJ say 220M Joules)

Also let us *assume* a normal distribution of distance/charge usage (probably an excessive assumption) so 50% and thus 2.0 million vehicles using 30kWh of electricity per day would require 2,000,000 * 220,000,000 Joules of energy = 440,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy. 440 Tera Joules (440 M * M Joules).

Assuming this is delivered over a 12 hour period then that is (approx) 40 M*M Joules per hour. 40,000,000,000,000 = watts * 60 * 60 * 12 => watts = 930MW load for 12Hours

So assuming I've done the maths and stats correctly then when we go to all electric new vehicles the initial year power requirement will be an extra 930MW load, say 1GW. By year two that will be 2GW increasing year by year.

I don't think we can say/conclude that in the future all the currently licensed vehicle in the UK will remain the same (or higher). There will be a big EV increase for sure but there will be a) classics running on fossil b) possible reduction as (in their government wildest dreams) a huge uptake in public transport brought about by taxing people off the road!

Now for my disclaimer. I did these fag packet calculations, based on dubious assumptions, but given the assumptions I think/hope my maths if correct.

What I've tried to add to this discussion is not watts, not watt hours, but gone back to basic energy in Joules. This measure of energy is absolute. How you deliver the required energy (per day) over time (charge period) and by source (fossil, hydro, atomic solar, wave, etc. is like the assumed stats/data in my post completely open to alternative evaluations.

For example we could say our required total EV can be split off over 24 hours where we power share with countries in different time zone. Currently the EU is out only power import and at best we can get two or three hour leverage.

Point of my post. (Tell me if I'm wrong) is that running an all EV requires so many Joules of energy per day. How you quantify average usage, number of vehicles, time to deliver, and charge rate is totally up for grabs.

I hope by bringing the base energy of Joules required to run an average vehicle on average usage is helpful.

Now going into my bunker :)

Post Update: Now I've corrected my error above to 1GW (from 100MW) there was the/is the National Grin Peak of sited 62GW peak load mentioned. In very rough terms 2 million vehicles will load the national grid by 1% to 1.5%. But make no mistake we start at a humble 1GW but this will double every year
 
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s130

Hmm,

I make the battery energy 216MJ not 21.6MJ
60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216,000,000

Robert G8RPI.

Correct Robert. I was a factor of 10 out. Not sure how that happened but as per all scientific exposures are supposed/expected to go then *my error* has been found and noted. Great!

That factor of 10 does not detract from my post/point of view. That is that we are talking *required energy measured in Joules* to support EVs who's usages and charging periods etc. will be variable across the population.

I'm not going to get dragged into A) vs B) vs C) discussions. The bottom line is that a 1kWh battery stores (efficiency at 100%, no heat losses etc.) 3.6MJ of energy. (1000 x 60 x60)

So 3.6MJ per kWh is the base. How you slice and dice this with respect to grid capacity, house capacity, number of vehicles etc. is where I think this discussion has possibly? gone of the rails.

If everybody can agree that a 1kWh battery contains 3.6MJ of energy then I'm sure?? we can come back on track with the overall EV discussion?
 
What a grand idea!

Is that the name for the 'end of line' PSA based 'FIAT'.. :rolleyes:


Late to this thread... but fully agree we will struggle to Generate enough electrical power to meet the needs of heating AND fuelling the nation.

Never mind distribution..

It was 2012 that they were running the discounted EV scheme to trial 'housing estate connectivity'.. they may have got the results.. but probably not acted on them. :eek:

Im afraid the quoted flywheel info is outdated :(
 
Correct Robert. I was a factor of 10 out. Not sure how that happened but as per all scientific exposures are supposed/expected to go then *my error* has been found and noted. Great!

That factor of 10 does not detract from my post/point of view. That is that we are talking *required energy measured in Joules* to support EVs who's usages and charging periods etc. will be variable across the population.

I'm not going to get dragged into A) vs B) vs C) discussions. The bottom line is that a 1kWh battery stores (efficiency at 100%, no heat losses etc.) 3.6MJ of energy. (1000 x 60 x60)

So 3.6MJ per kWh is the base. How you slice and dice this with respect to grid capacity, house capacity, number of vehicles etc. is where I think this discussion has possibly? gone of the rails.

If everybody can agree that a 1kWh battery contains 3.6MJ of energy then I'm sure?? we can come back on track with the overall EV discussion?

Sounds reasonable to me.

If we take "consumption" at 3.6 miles per kWh (most references say between 3 and 4 depending on conditions). that gives us a very handy:
One mile per per MJ
 
Not wanting to get dragged into this but I thought some vehicle registration facts may help calm things down.

In 2020 2.1 million new vehicles were registered down 27% on 2019 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/985555/vehicle-licensing-statistics-2020.pdf

Now let's assume when all EV is the only option here in the UK (ignore hydrogen) then it would be reasonable to assume new all EV registration will be 2.0 million? (lower still as people use public etc.)

Also let us *assume* that these all have 60kWh batteries. (21.6MJ say 22M Joules)

Also let us *assume* a normal distribution of distance/charge usage (probably an excessive assumption) so 50% and thus 2.0 million vehicles using 30kWh of electricity per day would require 2,000,000 * 22,000,000 Joules of energy = 44,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy. 44 Tera Joules (44 M * M Joules).

Assuming this is delivered over a 12 hour period then that is (approx) 4 M*M Joules per hour. 4,000,000,000,000 = watts * 60 * 60 * 12 => watts = 93MW load for 12Hours

So assuming I've done the maths and stats correctly then when we go to all electric new vehicles the initial year power requirement will be an extra 93MW load, say 100MW. By year two that will be 200MW increasing year by year.

I don't think we can say/conclude that in the future all the currently licensed vehicle in the UK will remain the same (or higher). There will be a big EV increase for sure but there will be a) classics running on fossil b) possible reduction as (in their government wildest dreams) a huge uptake in public transport brough about by taxing people off the road!

Now for my disclaimer. I did these fag packet calculations, based on dubious assumptions, but given the assumptions I think/hope my maths if correct.

What I've tried to add to this discussion is not watts, not watt hours, but gone back to basic energy in Joules. This measure of energy is absolute. How you deliver the required energy (per day) over time (charge period) and by source (fossil, hydro, atomic solar, wave, etc. is like the assumed stats/data in my post completely open to alternative evaluations.

For example we could say our required total EV can be split off over 24 hours where we power share with countries in different time zone. Currently the EU is out only power import and at best we can get two or three hour leverage.

Point of my post. (Tell me if I'm wrong) is that running an all EV requires so many Joules of energy per day. How you quantify average usage, number of vehicles, time to deliver, and charge rate is totally up for grabs.

I hope by bringing the base energy of Joules required to run an average vehicle on average usage is helpful.

Now going into my bunker :)


I'm not sure I understand the need to conversion to MJ


Go with your assumption of a 60KWh battery and assume 250mile range on a full 60KWh charge which is not far off what a lot of 60kWh battery cars will do.


An *average car you could argue might do 1000 miles a month/12,000 miles a year.

This means your *average electric car is only going to need charging once a week.

*except if you look up the average miles we do actually drive in the UK in our cars its dropped quite a lot and 12,000 miles a year is now more like 7,400 miles a year. so about 62% of what people assume.

So its actually more like 32-33 charges a year.

Something like a Polestar 2 has a 64KWh battery and on an 11kW (doesn't need 3 phase) charge in about 6hrs 40 mins.... call it 7hrs for the sake of ease.


11kW over 7 hrs = 77kWh worst case 33 charges a year = 2541kWh a year.

To put how little amount of power that is, in perspective. My PC that I have just built.

200watts drawn at the plug so 200Wh x 24 hrs in the day (its left on all the time and it is always drawing about or slightly more than 200W)

That's going to 4.8kWh, x 365 days a year = 1752 kWh.

I pay 14p per kWh and the car would therefore cost £355.74 a year to charge,

The PC costs about £245.28 a year to run (which is scary :eek:)

Any way 2 Million cars - about ~5TWh

20 Million cars about 50TWh. add another 50% for 30Million cars you're now looking at more like 75TWh per year in a country that usesl over 300TWh a year

But that's just assuming 60kWh cars so there are a lot of cars with much bigger batteries and batteries are getting bigger, also a lot of cars with much smaller batteries. so they take longer or less time to charge, bigger means more power used, smaller means less power used.


This math's in no way represents the real world but over all. it shows if this where the case the total increase in annual demand for electricity would increase by 75TW to 375TW.


Now assume that every car replaced runs on petrol, and that petrol car does 50mpg (which they really really don't but lets just assume)

That car would use 148Gallons of fuel.

a gallon of fuel might use 10 - 12kw of electricity from the grid to refine from crude oil

148G x 12kW per G and is going to equal 1776kWh per year in electricity to make the petrol to power that car.

(remember the electric car used only 2541kWh per year.


1776 * 30M = 53.28TW.

75-53 = 22TWh.

So every if every car in the UK suddenly over night became electric.
and we stopped making the millions of gallons of fuel for running the old petrol engines which have now all disappeared, we would only need an additional 22TW of electricity per year.

The country uses 300TWh per year. That is actually less than the 10% stated in the national grid article. but assumes a very fixed set of circumstances.

Factor in my estimate being completely short by 25% (22TWh + another 25%) and you still just scrape under the claimed 10% extra power needed per year.


back in 2002 the Grid used 62GW at its peak, that is to say the grid is capable of producing 62GW (actually the grid can produce a lot more than that. even now) but we use 16% less power these days than we did in 100W light bulb, no one had ever heard of energy saving anything - 2002.

Basically this goes to show there is more than enough capacity in the grid right now to switch every single car in the UK to electric power.

it also shows that a constant 11KW draw on the grid all day every day would be enough to charge 3.42 cars from empty to full which only need to be charged once every one and a half weeks...

If my math's is right hear one 11KW home charger that doesn't need anything like a 3 phase supply... if running 24/7 365 if you just plugged it into another electric car the second it finished charging one and the next and another.

That one 11KW charger would keep 35 cars per year (y)




The final things I have learned from this little exercise is that it costs about the same amount of electricity to refine enough fuel to travel 7400 miles as it does to run my PC for a year.
and that to run an electric car an average amount of miles each year would cost about the same (slightly less) as 3 x 100W lightbulbs being on 24/7.
 
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Are you still here ?

you scoured that whole post didn't you to try and find something to challenge ? :rolleyes:

Well it maybe utter BS and it seems to depend where you look some places say it could be 6kWh or even less but I will also tell you what else is BS, that's every petrol car in the country doing 50mpg. Not counting my a factored 25% error margin on top of that, and still came up with less than 10% extra power use.

Go look around, as the petrochemical industry doesn't produce any figures on the amount of power that is used on refining oil, not since 2005 when people started criticising the ridiculous amount of power used refining oil the exact numbers are not known estimates vary. (y)
 
back in 2002 the Grid used 62GW at its peak, that is to say the grid is capable of producing 62GW

The Grid neither uses (apart from transmssion losses) or produces electricity. It is just primary distribution.
That is why the figures mentioned originally were GW NOT GWh, the problem being discussed was infrastructure capacity, NOT generation. In particular local distribution (not part of the National Grid) which is already at full capacity in some areas due to new housing developments etc.

Robert G8RPI.
 
In 2019 16.9 Billion liters of petrol were used in UK = 3.717 Billion Gallons so at 12kWh to refine a gallon = 45TWh or 15% of UK electricity genertation?
I think not!
What about the 30 Billion liters of Diesel? Is that another 30% of the electricity supply?

Robert G8RPI.

Once again showing your genius.

You do know that petrol and diesel are refined from the same crude oil not only do you get petrol but you get a whole host of other things like tar, products for plastics etc. depending how you engineer your production you can get more or less of the things you want hence it being a "refining" process.

yes producing petrol really does use a lot of electricity. I'll refer you to my last post, and also point out again 12kWh might not be 100% accurate could be half that or even less, but the resultant figures are still far far more in line with what you'd expect to see, and what multiple sources. Also do take into account not every litre of fuel used in the UK was refined here, you can put it in a ship or pipe and move it from one country to another.


Mr Chartered engineer who misread an article and decided it said you could charge 30 million electric cars from 6.2 GW. (not even GWh) :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
The Grid neither uses (apart from transmssion losses) or produces electricity. It is just primary distribution.
That is why the figures mentioned originally were GW NOT GWh, the problem being discussed was infrastructure capacity, NOT generation. In particular local distribution (not part of the National Grid) which is already at full capacity in some areas due to new housing developments etc.

Robert G8RPI.

Sorry I have written this so many times it's not even funny you are still trying to dig yourself out of the hole you got yourself into.

Let me correct myself so you can stop jumping up and down with excitement thinking you've somehow trapped me when i'm just repeating something i've said so often now there are people on North Sentinel Island who now get what you've missed.

*Back in 2002 peek demand on the grid reached 62GW.

The fact that the grid supplied 62GW to meet that demand and still had plenty of reserve, and if you look into it, still does have plenty of reserve means that 62GW figure is actually irrelevant. The article simply stated that fact as a mechanism to indicate to the reader that this is how much power used to be needed, it then said the demand on the grid had gone down 16% since then (not 16% of 62GW but 16% of the total annual demand). Finally it said all the electric cars could be charged if demand went up now by 10% so still a 6% reduction on the amount of "TOTAL" power demanded by the network back 20 years ago.
And now you're trying to shift the focus onto local supply when your original claim was the grid as a whole could not supply the requisite power.

But you know all this now, surly? its not like I haven't spelled it out to you about 4 - 5 times now.

You're cute Robert, I'm sure you keep all your mates down the pub entertained.

It is literally impossible to have any respect for you.
 
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You do know that petrol and diesel are refined from the same crude oil not only do you get petrol but you get a whole host of other things like tar, products for plastics etc.

Exactly my point. you attribute the power used to refine petrol, diesel, heating oil etc, etc, to just petrol production and the electricity per mile of a petrol car.

Stop ridiculing other members to cover your errors.
I won't dignify your other posts with a response.

Edit, B.T.W. have you ever been to an oil refinery or on North Sea oil production platform? I have both and more.
 
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Exactly my point. you attribute the power used to refine petrol, diesel, heating oil etc, etc, to just petrol production and the electricity per mile of a petrol car.
Not the point you made at all, even if you thought you were being clever and laying some sneeky trap what you actually said was that petrol needed x number of electricity and therefore diesel would need more and comparable amount of electricity.

Doesn’t matter irrelevant because not every litre of pumped fuel comes from uk refineries and rough numbers I’m working with are based on the power that the refineries use and an assumption that every vehicle in the uk is petrol and gets 50mpg

You can’t catch out inaccurate figures when I am not claiming they are gospel.


Stop ridiculing other members to cover your errors.
I won't dignify your other posts with a response.

Of course you won’t, made a glaring error not converting GW to GWh completely misunderstood/misrepresented the article, must be pretty embarrassing.
I’m only ridiculing you and only because even now you can’t admit your school boy error but you Lord it over people on this forum like you’re some sort of genius in all matters especially when you get a chance to get your calculator out.

Edit, B.T.W. have you ever been to an oil refinery or on North Sea oil production platform? I have both and more.

I love that you’re posting this, of course I have, not that it’s relevant in any way shape or form. I went to a restaurant once does that mean I know how to cook?
I visited a monastery once too, does that mean I know everything about religion.

You even made the effort to come back and edit the post just to add this little bit of information. for what purpose? What did you think it would prove? Do they need a lot of aircraft instruments designing in an oil refinery?
 
I'm really now sorry I originally created this thread. I had a dumb inquisitive question that has now turned into a completely different beast.

There seems to be more "energy" delivered over "time" in this thread than a 100kW supply can accommodate!

Can I pull the plug please?
 
I'm really now sorry I originally created this thread. I had a dumb inquisitive question that has now turned into a completely different beast.

There seems to be more "energy" delivered over "time" in this thread than a 100kW supply can accommodate!

Can I pull the plug please?

:p

Please don’t pull the plug, I’ve found it entertaining if nothing else. Makes a change for me not to be in the full thick of it :p
 
To try to return towards the original point of this thread, I can add my thoughts on the view form my window. (Not exciting, cheap end of the town, typical 1970's suburb estate.)

Most, but not all houses have a driveway, so parking a car to charge is possible. In fact, there is an early Tesla Model S at the bottom of the road, in regular use. (It did disappear for several months, but has recently returned. We can only speculate on the repair needed, unlikely to be a crash repair, I'm thinking.)
Despite most having space for two cars, I'm looking at eight cars on the road, all of which could be on a drive at some time. As EVs will to require charging every night, choosing which to put on the drive will be something owners would get used to. I guess there would be times when the need to charge coincides, but after a domestic row, matters would be better planned in future.
There are however, just within my view, 7 houses with no driveways. There are probably 3 times that on the small estate, so those residents will have difficulty with an EV. In this small town, there are many terraced houses with no on-site parking, and this, I see, will be a difficult problem in the future. The 4 charging points at the tiny Tesco might become a site for fighting. I have a vision of people sitting in their cars in Tesco's car park, waiting for their turn to plug in, before returning home for a cold supper.
For us older ones, we could combine the early hours wake for a wee, with a short trip to the public charger perhaps. (Although we'd probably need another wee while waiting for the charge.)
There is talk of streetlight charging, but here, strangely, most of the streetlights are on the side of the road least suitable for parking.
Perhaps all two-storey houses will become three-storey, with parking underneath. Quite an engineering feat to lift a whole terrace. There's a picture to trouble the mind.
 
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