EV Charging

[portland_bill]

Hyundai are advertising their Ionic5 on the telly. I caught a glimpse of the small print, and saw "350kW charger".
At 230v mains, that's 1522A.
Their website declares it will connet to 400v supply, which is our 3-phase, but that still equates to 875A.
Further down the page, they do state 350kW using a High Power Charging network. Climbing the pylon to connect to those overhead cables might be a challenge.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/charge-my-hyundai

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Hyundai are advertising their Ionic5 on the telly. I caught a glimpse of the small print, and saw "350kW charger".
At 230v mains, that's 1522A.
Their website declares it will connet to 400v supply, which is our 3-phase, but that still equates to 875A.
Further down the page, they do state 350kW using a High Power Charging network. Climbing the pylon to connect to those overhead cables might be a challenge.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/charge-my-hyundai

350kw charging is via a rapid DC charger unit, won’t be doing that at home.

The car will likely have just the typical 7kw AC charger built in, although it may have a 3 phase charger.

 

[g8rpi]

Hyundai are advertising their Ionic5 on the telly. I caught a glimpse of the small print, and saw "350kW charger".
At 230v mains, that's 1522A.
Their website declares it will connet to 400v supply, which is our 3-phase, but that still equates to 875A.
Further down the page, they do state 350kW using a High Power Charging network. Climbing the pylon to connect to those overhead cables might be a challenge.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/charge-my-hyundai

Actually only about 487A on 415V supply. (350000 / 415 / Sqrt 3)

Robert G8RPI.

 

[AndyRKett]

Hyundai are advertising their Ionic5 on the telly. I caught a glimpse of the small print, and saw "350kW charger".
At 230v mains, that's 1522A.
Their website declares it will connet to 400v supply, which is our 3-phase, but that still equates to 875A.
Further down the page, they do state 350kW using a High Power Charging network. Climbing the pylon to connect to those overhead cables might be a challenge.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/charge-my-hyundai

Looking through the website, it suggests the "400V" charging is an option for home chargers (i,e 3 phase AC) but this is not at the 350Kw output of the charging station chargers.

There is a lot of talk on the website about an "innovative 800V battery system" and there is also different parts of the site which suggest only 220Kw charging at high voltage DC. I think it needs to be plugged into a "350KW" charger as that's the only unit capable of the required 220kw output to the car.

The main point is the charging times. 18 minutes from 10% - 80% range on a car with a nearly 300 mile range. A 20 minute stop for a coffee, cake and wee, can result in a 200 mile range increase. plenty enough for another 3 - 4 hours driving.

UK power networks allow an upgrade to a 70KVA supply. This would at a 0.8 power factor allow about 56KW max. usually enough for a shop or restaurant with lots of plugged in equipment. Or as UK power network say "multiple EV chargers in the car park" these are not going to be rapid chargers.

 

[g8rpi]

Looking through the website, it suggests the "400V" charging is an option for home chargers (i,e 3 phase AC) but this is not at the 350Kw output of the charging station chargers.

There is a lot of talk on the website about an "innovative 800V battery system" and there is also different parts of the site which suggest only 220Kw charging at high voltage DC. I think it needs to be plugged into a "350KW" charger as that's the only unit capable of the required 220kw output to the car.

The main point is the charging times. 18 minutes from 10% - 80% range on a car with a nearly 300 mile range. A 20 minute stop for a coffee, cake and wee, can result in a 200 mile range increase. plenty enough for another 3 - 4 hours driving.

UK power networks allow an upgrade to a 70KVA supply. This would at a 0.8 power factor allow about 56KW max. usually enough for a shop or restaurant with lots of plugged in equipment. Or as UK power network say "multiple EV chargers in the car park" these are not going to be rapid chargers.

Any high power charge point (AC-DC converters, the actual charger is still in the car) will have power factor correction so will be near unity power factor. They could in thery uses nearly the whole 70kVA.

The 70kVA limit (100A per phase) includes the rest of the domestic requiment. This and standard connectors etc mean a charging supply is likey to be limited to 63A or 45kVA.
Currently availale charging points (AC-DC converters, the actual charger is still in the car) in the UK seem to be limited to 32A (22kW).
Of couse this does not mean the infrastructure can support every house on the street running 70kVA for hours on end. Even with recent reduction in demand by banning incandesent lmps etc, supply is going to be a challenge. Not only lots of EV's but the replacement of gas / oil heating and gas cooking with electric.

Even running two 22kVA chargers per household will be difficult. Running two chargers and a 10.5kW shower would put you ovr the limit at 109A on one phase.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[chris3234]

Any high power charge point (AC-DC converters, the actual charger is still in the car) will have power factor correction so will be near unity power factor. They could in thery uses nearly the whole 70kVA.

The 70kVA limit (100A per phase) includes the rest of the domestic requiment. This and standard connectors etc mean a charging supply is likey to be limited to 63A or 45kVA.
Currently availale charging points (AC-DC converters, the actual charger is still in the car) in the UK seem to be limited to 32A (22kW).
Of couse this does not mean the infrastructure can support every house on the street running 70kVA for hours on end. Even with recent reduction in demand by banning incandesent lmps etc, supply is going to be a challenge. Not only lots of EV's but the replacement of gas / oil heating and gas cooking with electric.

Even running two 22kVA chargers per household will be difficult. Running two chargers and a 10.5kW shower would put you ovr the limit at 109A on one phase.


Robert G8RPI.

The local supply issue will be a big one around here due to several large housing developments some areas are allready approaching the limits of the local sub station and have been asked to avoid using large loads during peak time until work can be carried out to upgrade supply cables in November

I imagine a lot more people will have such issues as more people get electric cars

 

[The Panda Nut]

1522A.

Its just a matter of time, before people die connecting to and fiddling with these unrealistic machines and their plastic coated lightweight cables.

Any talk of this sort of current being handled at work would be an immediate breach of HASAWA.

My father in law was involved with the National grid in the 1950's and 60's and its totally laughable to thing that we can increase the demands on that ancient system untill every single bit has been replaced with something far more substantial. The cars clearly work more of less - bugger then environmental effects of lithium harvesting -but infra structure is simply not yet nearly there. This technology is dead end. Like it or not hydrogen cells are more likely to be a viable way forward.

Personally I favour nuclear powered cars refuelling will not be an issue and furure generations can sort out the mess. Ha ha ha ha!!!!!

We need to stop using cars. Its really as simple as that. If governments took the sensible step of stopping the ridiculous use of overpowered personal transport they would do more immediate good in one stroke than all the flapping about electric cars.

Forcing all down this one transport route is frankly the most intraverted, idiotic and thoughtless policy that has ever been introduced on anything since Hitler was around.

 

[s130]

Interestingly Europe (certainly Belgium) where I lived already supply 3 phase to all houses. They then load balance by street, even by house by selecting the single phase to use at the premises.

Also getting 3 phase to the house is not an issue either.

 

[chris3234]

Interestingly Europe (certainly Belgium) where I lived already supply 3 phase to all houses. They then load balance by street, even by house by selecting the single phase to use at the premises.

Also getting 3 phase to the house is not an issue either.

It can be for some house's not all house's can get it without significant expense especially for those in more remote area's

 

[s130]

It can be for some house's not all house's can get it without significant expense especially for those in more remote area's

Well I'm going on my 1970s/80s experiences in Brussels (Woluwe-Saint-Piere) and the then developing Jesus-Eik. That is indeed many years ago but basic electrical infrastructures live on for decades of years and get propagated year by year. To that end I strongly suspect that a Belgian new house will still have a basic 3 phase supply into the premises and one phase will be taken as the prime supply.

Also NOTE then (I've not checked recently) houses etc. did not have a neutral as in the UK. Often the house supply was derived between the phases as my dad found out nearly killing himself when changing a light bulb where the house lounge lighting switch was just a single pole switch. Enough to turn the light off but not sufficient to provide human safety! You have to know/remember that the EU use Edison screw bulbs where both the tip and and screw out can be live unlike our UK system.

 

[chris3234]

Well I'm going on my 1970s/80s experiences in Brussels (Woluwe-Saint-Piere) and the then developing Jesus-Eik. That is indeed many years ago but basic electrical infrastructures live on for decades of years and get propagated year by year. To that end I strongly suspect that a Belgian new house will still have a basic 3 phase supply into the premises and one phase will be taken as the prime supply.

Also NOTE then (I've not checked recently) houses etc. did not have a neutral as in the UK. Often the house supply was derived between the phases as my dad found out nearly killing himself when changing a light bulb where the house lounge lighting switch was just a single pole switch. Enough to turn the light off but not sufficient to provide human safety! You have to know/remember that the EU use Edison screw bulbs where both the tip and and screw out can be live unlike our UK system.

Lots of UK light fittings at screw type I have a few on exterior lights
And several r50 spotlight type lights with SES fittings

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

My father in law was involved with the National grid in the 1950's and 60's and its totally laughable to thing that we can increase the demands on that ancient system untill every single bit has been replaced with something far more substantial.

So where are you getting this information from?

The Nation Grid, the experts on their own system, have even said there isn’t an issue!

Note point 1 - https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

The only potential issue is the power generation. The grid for carrying however is fine.

 

[The Panda Nut]

So where are you getting this information from?

The Nation Grid, the experts on their own system, have even said there isn’t an issue!

Note point 1 - https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

The only potential issue is the power generation. The grid for carrying however is fine.

Hope you are right, not that a lack of amps is much less of an issue. Im sure the experts are right and the grid can take 4 times the power flow....

I just pray for a balanced approach to transport but that of course is probably wishful thinking.

 

[g8rpi]

So where are you getting this information from?

The Nation Grid, the experts on their own system, have even said there isn’t an issue!

Note point 1 - https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

The only potential issue is the power generation. The grid for carrying however is fine.

Some statements on the NG page don't make sense. 10% of 62GW is 6.2GW (6.2x10^9W) Taking the 22kW (22x10^3W) "granny" charger as a baseline, that is 282,000 chargers. There are 32 million cars in the UK
Take 10% of cars and assume a medium 40kW charger, thats 128GW more than twice 2002 capacity :bang:

They also do not address that capacity, and the balance between on demnd or wind/solar has decreased since the 2002 baseline.

The NG does not own the local distribution systems, even if the grid has capacity the transformer and cables in the street may not.

BTW we are not being forced to use electric, Hydrogen, Ammonia (and I think LPG) are still on the table

Robert G8RPI.

 

[s130]

BTW we are not being forced to use electric, Hydrogen, Ammonia (and I think LPG) are still on the table
Robert G8RPI.

Indeed. Only joking but a manual self wind rubber band is not ruled out.

When it comes to motor vehicles the environmental/other concerns are basically associated with "how the vehicle converts one energy source into a motive force as cleanly as possible. Little of this takes into account the original's source of green factors. Electric = power stations based on nuclear, wind, tidal, solar, hydro, etc. Each have their own other climate / resource / environmental issues.

While I was joking about the rubber band actually flywheels have be used and trialled as motive (and electric generation) energy deliver source.

A non automotive example is that a Harwell/Culham Labs back in the 70s used a huge/massive flywheel to provide huge amounts of power in "pulse" usage applications where the power required was greater than could be delivered via the grid despite Didcot power station being only a couple of miles away.

Same goes for high energy capacitive discharge systems I have designed for nuclear / laser / etc. research.

Basically the "energy conversion" (energy can not be created or destroyed) is what we are struggling with.

Creating Hydrogen requires large amounts of energy at point of production but results in a zero emission from the vehicle at point of usage. Any environmental issues have been moved from the road/town to another point.

What we need is a power cable between the earth and the sun

 

[g8rpi]

s130
Yes Flywheels are good energy stores. Many applications of them being used for engine starting. The naval version of the new Dragonfire directed energy weapon (laser) uses one. https://www.imeche.org/news/news-ar...on-get-energy-boost-from-formula-one-flywheel
Just find frictionless bearings and put it in a vacuum and it will store energy for a long time.
Hydrogen is interesting but has issues other than production. A big one is storage, It needs to be at cryogenic temperatures for liquid storage and as a gas it is so light it takes up a lot of space even though it has a high energy density.

Personally I think fast neutron reactors with battery electric and hydrogen is the only practical mid term solution with fusion for the long term.
Ammonia is interesting, either for direct combustion or with cracking on vehicle to generate H2 for fuel cells. Again the problem is getting a clean source.
One issue with fuel cells for aircraft is the water they produce, if emitted it could cause contrails which are greenhouse contributors, if captured the aircraft would weigh more when it landed than when it took of. This has a big impact on landing gear design and weight and safe landing distances.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[s130]

s130Again the problem is getting a clean source.
One issue with fuel cells for aircraft is the water they produce, if emitted it could cause contrails which are greenhouse contributors, if captured the aircraft would weigh more when it landed than when it took of. This has a big impact on landing gear design and weight and safe landing distances.
Robert G8RPI.

And as you point out Robert what ever we do has an implication / knock on event further down the line.

That is possibly my biggest criticism / concern with the rush to other solutions.

Originally when wind power generators were deployed they required massive concrete foundations and towers that required more energy to produce the concrete than the wind turbine would ever produce during it's life.

Yes things have moved on as technology etc. has improved but I would like to see current data on wind turbine real net gain/cost befit vs long term life, maintenance and retirement and scrappage costs. An issue the nuclear industry has been tackling with for many years.

I think what is happening is that over time there is a net gain produced by all of these solar / wind / nuclear / .... technologies but I think we/society/politicians are actually racing faster (in hope) than what is actually deliverable and in doing so creating unforeseen side issues/consequences in the process.

And here is possibly? the real issue. Environmentalist driving politicians forcing industry into avenues TOO early that is sensible/practical. We went down this route with so called Diesel Gate where diesel was said to be good! Any engineer with knowledge would know that diesel engines are for constant rpm, constant load, stable operating conditions AND NOT suited to start, stop, accelerate, variable speed and load application require in motor vehicles. Ships and trains on long journeys yes. Cars no!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Some statements on the NG page don't make sense. 10% of 62GW is 6.2GW (6.2x10^9W) Taking the 22kW (22x10^3W) "granny" charger as a baseline, that is 282,000 chargers. There are 32 million cars in the UK
Take 10% of cars and assume a medium 40kW charger, thats 128GW more than twice 2002 capacity :bang:

A granny charger is 2.2, now 22kw.

You're also assuming a large portion of EVs will all be charging at the same time at 40kw, most will be home charging, as a much slower rate, and at various different times.

Not forgetting energy savings to come from elsewhere, such as the oil refinery industry, which uses circa 7kw electricity to refine 1 UK gal of fuel.

 

[g8rpi]

Hmm poor use of granny charger I admit. I posit that most people will want to charge at the same time i.e. when they come home. Ye smart chargers can do some sequencing but the point is that the National Grid figures don't make sense.
Do you mean kWh per gallon of petrol? Seven seems a bit high, a bit of research indicates 5kWh per gallon. Even this is a bit disengenious because it does not include other products (diesel, heating oil, plastics etc) that will be produced at the same time. Very dificult to separate it all out. Of course if we are going into that leevel of detail then the fuell used in drying and shipping "biomass" wood pellets for Drax needs to be figured into EV usage.......

 

[AndyRKett]

A granny charger is 2.2, now 22kw.

You're also assuming a large portion of EVs will all be charging at the same time at 40kw, most will be home charging, as a much slower rate, and at various different times.

Not forgetting energy savings to come from elsewhere, such as the oil refinery industry, which uses circa 7kw electricity to refine 1 UK gal of fuel.

Also a lot of new EVs are intelligent enough to be programmed to charge at a certain time when costs for electricity are low. So people get in from work. Plug the car in and lt might not start charging till economy 7 time starts over night when national grid demand is low.

There is this assumption that the load of evs gets added onto the grid without any consideration for constantly lowering of demand for power through cheaper and more efficient electronics.

The main example of which was growing up in a house where every bulb was 100w and we had 3kw electric heaters in each room. Now we have 5w LED bulbs and mainly gas heating but also much more efficient electric heater producing the same heat output for only 2-300w use


If there was a massive and sudden increase in demand that needed to be addressed quickly the. The uk is very easily able to build infrastructure quickly when needed. Look at the costs and complexity of putting on the Olympic in 2012, billions where spent in a very short space of time. After the war all of the UKs 26 magnox nuclear reactors where running and connected to the grid within a 15 year period between 1956 and 71
So I don’t think long term we need to be worrying about the wiring in your street, if there is enough demand then the work gets done. It only becomes a problem if you’re the only person who wants an upgraded connection and you get slapped with a massive bill.

My neighbour who bought a hotel got slapped with a £20k To install a bigger water pipe when it gutted the place and installed double the bathrooms and rooms that it used to have causing massive water pressure problems. No other houses or buildings on the end of that water pipe so he had to pay entirely himself to upgrade it.