General Engine just stopped ... no warning.

[Peter034]

Hi
I have a 1998 1.2 8v Punto that the engine has just cut out and can not restart.

It started fine pulled away normal got about 30 foot then it was like the ignition had been turned off this was instant no misfire or juddering just cut dead, all the electrics i.e. lights, wipers etc seem to work o.k..

The engine turns over fast, petrol is being pumped to the injector as can see moisture after turning engine over, tested the high amp fuses under bonnet all good, changed crank shaft sensor about 4 years back so hope that is good, wiring to it looks o.k.

Not tested if spark at plugs as need to get a plug socket to remove plug ... not sure what size socket to get ... please any info on socket size, thanks.

There is no attempt to fire on any cylinder at all ... does this happen if the coil packs have a problem ? is there a common failure to look for that affects all coil packs.

Any advice please, thanks.

 

[Eklipze3k]

Sounds most likely to be spark, it's a 16mm spark plug IIRC.

 

[blu73]

if you can see petrol at the TB when cranking then its not crank sensor as that would mean no fuel or spark.

I kinda doubt its a coil issue, would be odd for them both to completely fail all of a sudden both at the same time. I think I would lean towards a loose or broken wire. Have you done any or had any work done recently?

 

[varesecrazy]

i Have you done any or had any work done recently?

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto/437186-head-gasket-replaced-now-slight-oil-leak.html

 

[blu73]

mmm, was gonna try workout something that could have been disturbed - HG change pretty much disturbs everything lol... Its been a few months though so not likely related to that i don't think.

 

[Peter034]

Hi
Yes, had the head gasket replaced about 2 months ago, been driving fine since that, will test for spark at plug tomorrow as have found a box spanner to do the job of getting the plugs out.

About seeing petrol when its cranked, looking down where the injector and throttle are when the engine is cranked should you be able to see the petrol being injected as a spray mixture being drawn down into the inlet manifold, having said that I can see petrol I am just thinking that I should be able to see a spray of petrol/air mix is that correct.

Thanks for any help.

 

[blu73]

Should be able to see a small amount of fuel pooling on the butterfly when cranking yes... alternatively if you crank it over for a while then take our a plug it will be wet with petrol.

 

[Peter034]

Hi
Took two spark plugs out one from each coil pack, cranked engine good clear spark could be seen, not sure if I need to remove the other two plugs to test ?

So, have petrol being delivered and have spark on two plugs from different coil packs, I am hoping as these two parts are there this would rule out the crank sensor ?

Was worried that it may have been the ECU not sending signals but seems most things are there in order to get it to start.

Any further thoughts would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Peter034]

Just a further thought, is there any way of testing the crankshaft sensor on the Punto, have seen on youtube some tests but when I tried it on the plug from the c/s sensor using a multi meter I did not get anything like the readings on the videos shown.

Did have this fail some years ago then had intermittent start but fitted new one and had good starting ever since, now not a sign of starting.

Would be interested on any info on testing the sensor, thanks.

 

[blu73]

I don't know any conclusive way to test it no... but if you have spark and fuel its defo sending a signal to the ecu, its very unlikely to be that.

If you have fuel and spark it should in theory fire up, for it not to run it cannot be injecting and firing at the right time. Check the timing is what i would do now, if it was timed right and just them 2 plugs you tested were firing it would at least sound like it was trying to start, might even start on only 2 and just run crap but sounds like its not running at all. I'm guessing the timing belt could have jumped a few teeth, far enough for it to not run. That or the belt has totally come off.

 

[Peter034]

Hi
Yes its got me scratching my head too ;-) I too thought that the timing belt may have come off/snapped but have only had a quick look to check its still there in position and it is.
I will take the cover completely off and check the positioning etc as you suggested.
Whatever has occurred its stopping all attempts a starting yet the nessarry things are there petrol & spark.
Have looked for any loose wires but no sign all seem sound as have tugged them gently just in case any were loose.
Cant think an earthing problem as when the plugs spark on test ?
Are there any other sensors i.e. Lambda sensor that could have failed that would stop it starting ?
Its a strange thing to happen as it was instant loss of engine just cut dead.
Will try the timing asap,

Thanks for your help

 

[blu73]

Won't be lambda. It would start totally fine without a lambda and then just run crap once it had warmed a bit.

 

[Peter034]

Hi
having a problem undoing the 3 bolts that hold the crankshaft pulley on, I left all the spark plugs in as to give me more torque to undo these bolts but they wont shift and the crank turns when trying to undo them.
Is there any way to hold/lock the c/s pulley from turning so I can get enough leverage to undo the 3 bolts ?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Is there any way to hold/lock the c/s pulley from turning so I can get enough leverage to undo the 3 bolts ?

Thanks for any advice.

in gear with wheels on ground..

 

[Peter034]

Hi
Managed to remove the pulley from the crank shaft today, checked the position for the crankshaft and camshaft ... they do not match up not even close.
So as you said it was possible it could have jumped which looks the case here so will try tomorrow to reset it all, one problem I have is I dont have the correct tool to re-tension the timing belt tensioner but will make something up to do the job.

Question about the crank/cam set up ..........

Do I need to turn the crankshaft to its correct line up position and then need to see that cylinder one is fully raised looking through the spark plug hole, I am hoping that I dont make any mistakes setting this timing up.

Is it straight forward as lining up the crank position and camshaft position location markings as I counted two revolutions of the crank to one of the camshaft in other words if I get it wrong will I be opening the outlet valve when I should be opening the inlet valve if I get the camshaft 180 degrees out ? hope I am making sense here.

Not sure if there is a risk of damaging the valves if I get it wrong ? think I read on the forum that the engine is a "non interference" type only hope thats correct.

Many thanks for any advice ...............

 

[blu73]

i just put a screw driver through the pulley and hold it while i crack the bolts loose, there is a nice flat bit you can wedge it against towards the rear of the pulley.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi
Managed to remove the pulley from the crank shaft today, checked the position for the crankshaft and camshaft ... they do not match up not even close.
So as you said it was possible it could have jumped which looks the case here so will try tomorrow to reset it all, one problem I have is I dont have the correct tool to re-tension the timing belt tensioner but will make something up to do the job.

Question about the crank/cam set up ..........

Do I need to turn the crankshaft to its correct line up position and then need to see that cylinder one is fully raised looking through the spark plug hole, I am hoping that I dont make any mistakes setting this timing up.

Is it straight forward as lining up the crank position and camshaft position location markings as I counted two revolutions of the crank to one of the camshaft in other words if I get it wrong will I be opening the outlet valve when I should be opening the inlet valve if I get the camshaft 180 degrees out ? hope I am making sense here.

Not sure if there is a risk of damaging the valves if I get it wrong ? think I read on the forum that the engine is a "non interference" type only hope thats correct.

Many thanks for any advice ...............

8v should be safe,
undo the idler pulley.. you'll discover it's just a bearing..sat on a big washer.. the washer has 2 x extra holes..I tend to put pliers in the holes and twist to tension.

I just line-up marks.. but that's normally when I know it's on the correct stroke,
my 2004 panda had jumped 7 teeth ( failed water pump= 13 months old..), retimed, ran fine. and covered another 30K without issue

Charlie

 

[Peter034]

Hi
Thanks very much for all the info's ... Yes it was the timing belt that had jumped, I think this is a poor job done by the garage when I had the head gasket done by a couple of months ago.
I had checked that it had not snapped or come off the pulleys but only peeked inside the cover as I believed that was sound ... how wrong could I be.
I am thinking they did a rush job on it and never took the time to double check there work as the belt has direction arrows were in the wrong direction, dont know if its important or not but that was on the wrong way.
I reckon they did not tension the belt correctly and it was sloppy in places but the tension pulley was tight when I freed it so looks like it was a matter of time before it happened, looking back at least it was outside the house by only a short distance not on a busy road when it went !!!
I have tensioned the belt so that the longest section can just be turned about 90 degrees but it is taunt so hopefully its not to tight.
Dont know if these belts stretch after a while ? I now have to be brave and drive it just to make shore its o.k.

Thanks again for your advice and help.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi. Should be fine now..

Id had a suspicion..hence reference to the h.g. work

 

[blu73]

Result
Sound like you got the tension as it should be These belts will of course stretch a tiny bit but they are designed not to - they have cords internally to help stop them stretching as they age. Just have faith in your work and go back in a few hundred miles and recheck the tension.