General DUCATO diesel starting problem

[Grantlee95]

Hi I own an03 plate DUCATO 2.8 diesel Motorhome sometimes it starts fine other times it starts then cuts out straight away and needs 4 to 5 attempts before it stays running but once started it runs superb no stranger noises no smoke and pulls very well many thanks for any ideas to fix this

 

[1stDucato]

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I've been reading comments on starting problems since I joined the Forum a few months ago as my 2009 3L 160mj tends to take 2 or 3 attempts before starting & you should find plenty of discussions on here that could help. One point that seems to be made quite often is that a cause can be poor earthing, in particular corrosion affecting the gearbox to chassis earthing strap situated behind & below the air filter housing. There can be many other causes of course but that might be one worth eliminating......

 

[Communicator]

W

Hi I own an03 plate DUCATO 2.8 diesel Motorhome sometimes it starts fine other times it starts then cuts out straight away and needs 4 to 5 attempts before it stays running but once started it runs superb no stranger noises no smoke and pulls very well many thanks for any ideas to fix this

While it is just possible that the vehicle is a late registration 2001 model, with either 2.8D, or 2.8idTD engines, I assume that it is in fact a 2.8jtd, with electronic injection control.

The symptoms described could be caused by leaking injector(s). These would cause the engine to struggle to achieve minimum common rail pressure at cranking speed. Once started the greater engine rpm facilitates achievement of the necessary pressure, and the engine runs without problem.

"Edit. Another possibility for poor starting on a 2.8jtd engine is a failing camshaft position sensor. The ECU uses the camshaft (timing) sensor to determine the stroke, whether compression or exhaust only when starting, and subsequently relies only upon the crankshaft sensor. This would explain poor starting, but not starting and failing to continue running."

An injector leak off test will confirm the hypothesis. A leak off test is carried out by diverting the injector return pipes into a set of four bottles, one for each injector. On cranking the engine, the bottles should fill at equal rates any a faulty injector will fill the bottle at a greater rate.

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I've been reading comments on starting problems since I joined the Forum a few months ago as my 2009 3L 160mj tends to take 2 or 3 attempts before starting & you should find plenty of discussions on here that could help. One point that seems to be made quite often is that a cause can be poor earthing, in particular corrosion affecting the gearbox to chassis earthing strap situated behind & below the air filter housing. There can be many other causes of course but that might be one worth eliminating......

Sorry, but to avoid confusion, with the OP searching for a non existent earth strap, the problems with the engine earth strap described above, do not apply to the OP's x244? model.

 

[Grantlee95]

W

While it is just possible that the vehicle is a late registration 2001 model, with either 2.8D, or 2.8idTD engines, I assume that it is in fact a 2.8jtd, with electronic injection control.

The symptoms described could be caused by leaking injector(s). These would cause the engine to struggle to achieve minimum common rail pressure at cranking speed. Once started the greater engine rpm facilitates achievement of the necessary pressure, and the engine runs without problem.

"Edit. Another possibility for poor starting on a 2.8jtd engine is a failing camshaft position sensor. The ECU uses the camshaft (timing) sensor to determine the stroke, whether compression or exhaust only when starting, and subsequently relies only upon the crankshaft sensor. This would explain poor starting, but not starting and failing to continue running."

An injector leak off test will confirm the hypothesis. A leak off test is carried out by diverting the injector return pipes into a set of four bottles, one for each injector. On cranking the engine, the bottles should fill at equal rates any a faulty injector will fill the bottle at a greater rate.

Sorry, but to avoid confusion, with the OP searching for a non existent earth strap, the problems with the engine earth strap described above, do not apply to the OP's x244? model.

any thanks I’m no mechanic but I can say that it never fails to start and does run very well just the starting problem but hope it’s not a costly fix

 

[Grantlee95]

any thanks I’m no mechanic but I can say that it never fails to start and does run very well just the starting problem but hope it’s not a costly fix

Hi communicator I have just looked at prices for both camshaft and crank sensor would you replace both see. As it seems an easy cheap job

 

[Communicator]

Hi communicator I have just looked at prices for both camshaft and crank sensor would you replace both see. As it seems an easy cheap job

I also have a 2006 2.8jtd. If it were displaying the same symptoms, I would be considering a leak off test, and looking at the price of replacement injectors.

 

[Grantlee95]

I also have a 2006 2.8jtd. If it were displaying the same symptoms, I would be considering a leak off test, and looking at the price of replacement injectors.

Many thanks for that will have that looked at and let you know as there is no warning lights on and it’s the same issue from cold or warm

 

[Communicator]

@Grantlee95 I note from your introductory thread that the glow plug light sometimes stays on for up to a minute, after starting. This puzzles me.
As the vehicle is relatively new to you, please confirm that the engine is in fact a 2.8jtd 8140.43s, and not a 2.3jtd, F1AE0481C.

Edit. May I also suggest that you supply the model number. This is the first three numbers of the VIN, which may be found either in the V5C registration document , or on the VIN plate on the cross member over the radiator. The engine type can also be found at this latter location, next to the heading "Motore".

(Explanation. the model changed in 2002 from 230, to 244, but with motorhomes in particular late registration does occur, due to conversion and sales delays.)

 

[brokendonkey]

ive had this with a different van and it was a perished o ring on a fuel hose causing an air leak into the supply side which would allow the diesel to drain back to the tank. has it got a hand priming bulb.
if you start it then turn it off and leave it half an hour does it start OK? is it worse if you have left it for a long period of time?

 

[Communicator]

ive had this with a different van and it was a perished o ring on a fuel hose causing an air leak into the supply side which would allow the diesel to drain back to the tank. has it got a hand priming bulb.
if you start it then turn it off and leave it half an hour does it start OK? is it worse if you have left it for a long period of time?

If, as I am trying to get confirmation of, the engine is a 2.8jtd, or even a 2,3jtd, then the vehicle will have a submerged electric fuel pump in the tank. This pump can be heard running for several seconds when ignition is switched on, and then stops if the engine is not started..

The problem that you mention usually applies to mechanical injection systems, when the transfer pump integral with the injection pump is used to suck fuel from the tank.

 

[1stDucato]

any thanks I’m no mechanic but I can say that it never fails to start and does run very well just the starting problem but hope it’s not a costly fix

Just come across another thread that, pace Communicator, might be more relevant to your vehicle: "The dreaded Ducato earth strap!" from Motorhome Matters - Out & About Live https://share.google/kKacCOgfjr83N6PP4

 

[Communicator]

Just come across another thread that, pace Communicator, might be more relevant to your vehicle: "The dreaded Ducato earth strap!" from Motorhome Matters - Out & About Live https://share.google/kKacCOgfjr83N6PP4

I find it interesting that my words are quoted and then re-quoted. As will be seen if the link to the OAL forum above is followed, earthing problems on the x244 can occur, but they are rare when compared with those on the x250. @Grantlee95 has still to confirm the model of number of his Ducato, as it could be either an x230, or an x244. From photos posted on forum I have noticed that on the x230 the battery, and engine earth points were the same, but with two separate cables.

My original hypothesis that the the OP's problems were fuel related remains a best fit to the symptoms described.

As a precaution to exclude moisture,the chassis earth flag on my x244 has had a smear of petroleum jelly applied.

 

[jackwhoo]

@Grantlee95

Your responce is required

 

[Grantlee95]

I find it interesting that my words are quoted and then re-quoted. As will be seen if the link to the OAL forum above is followed, earthing problems on the x244 can occur, but they are rare when compared with those on the x250. @Grantlee95 has still to confirm the model of number of his Ducato, as it could be either an x230, or an x244. From photos posted on forum I have noticed that on the x230 the battery, and engine earth points were the same, but with two separate cables.

My original hypothesis that the the OP's problems were fuel related remains a best fit to the symptoms described.

As a precaution to exclude moisture,the chassis earth flag on my x244 has had a smear of petroleum jelly applied.

@Grantlee95

Your responce is required

Hi everybody really sorry for no reply I’ve been away on holiday I believe it’s an x244 or that’s what’s quoted if I put my reg in car parts sites

 

[Communicator]

Hi everybody really sorry for no reply I’ve been away on holiday I believe it’s an x244 or that’s what’s quoted if I put my reg in car parts sites

Thanks for the reply. The model number can be obtained from the first three numbers of the VIN, which will probably have the form ZFA244..........

 

[Grantlee95]

Thanks for the reply. The model number can be obtained from the first three numbers of the VIN, which will probably have the form ZFA244..........

Hi to everybody offering suggestions as to what my issue might be I have just taken a foto of my v5

Thanks for the reply. The model number can be obtained from the first three numbers of the VIN, which will probably have the form ZFA244..........

 

[Grantlee95]

I thought I had cracked it the other day as I have been using the basic non button flip key and realised I had another key just normal non flip key used it a few times and van started first turn but then after few days back to starting anywhere between 1 and 4 goes so taking to local guy in morning to see if he can diagnose and many thanks to all on here no good at spanner’s or techs but thank you all

 

[Communicator]

When looking unsuccessfully to see if I had bookmarked an explanatory diagram for the workings of a common rail engine, I came across this old thread, which seems to be pertinent. See post #18 for cause of problem.

To help others please post resolution on this thread.

 

[Grantlee95]

Hi to everybody offering suggestions as to what my issue might be I have just taken a foto of my v5

Hi again can I ask your opinion on said starting issue it seems if I turn ignition on and wait a second for padlock light to go out the van started first turn every time first time but if I jump in and turn key that’s when it needs a couple of attempts

 

[jackwhoo]

The padlock light shows imobilser stopping engine start
Do wait for light/s to go off before attempting to start engine, your engine and electronics will thank you.

The correct procedure for starting a diesel engine is to wait for imo and cold start lights to go out before cranking. Also gives you time to register fuel level