Technical Ducato 2.8 idTD Temp Gauge and Fan issues.

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Technical Ducato 2.8 idTD Temp Gauge and Fan issues.

1. Shorting the pins. At the first attempt you struck lucky, and shorted the earth connection to pin operating one of the fan relays. At second attempt you may just have connected the negative ends of the two relays together. As you observed nothing would happen. Yes some fans are allowed to run with ignition off, to ensure that a hot engine is cooled sufficiently. Other fan may need ignition on. This different method of connection explains why the contacts of the radiator mounted thermostatic switch are on the negative side of the relay coils.
Hi mate

Cheers for joining the party :)

I did try all pin combos with no joy, and with the ignition on, but still no joy for that other fan. It def works though as i swapped the fan plugs around at the actual fans, and the same pin combo i used previously then fired up that fan. I can't find anything to suggest which colour wire is which. There seems to be two bluey colours and one black. It ended up going dark so i was struggling to see in the end. Tomorrow though, I think I will try and trace the colour wires back to the relays in the little plastic housing on the rad to work out which wire is going to what, and also switch the relays around and do the same thing with the jumper wire, just to make sure both relays are ok.
 
Hi mate

Cheers for joining the party :)

I did try all pin combos with no joy, and with the ignition on, but still no joy for that other fan. It def works though as i swapped the fan plugs around at the actual fans, and the same pin combo i used previously then fired up that fan. I can't find anything to suggest which colour wire is which. There seems to be two bluey colours and one black. It ended up going dark so i was struggling to see in the end. Tomorrow though, I think I will try and trace the colour wires back to the relays in the little plastic housing on the rad to work out which wire is going to what, and also switch the relays around and do the same thing with the jumper wire, just to make sure both relays are ok.
Relays usually are OK, its the connections that give the most trouble. Some fan circuits also include a physically large, low resistance, resistor, and the connections to that may give trouble.

I will have to call time now.
 
As @Communicator mentions, although long retired I work on the early to bed, early to rise theory.:) and as he mentions re fans kicking in when ignition keys out etc. manufacturers realised once stopped after a fast run, engines still had a lot of heat to get rid of and with water pump and belt driven fans not working the engines were getting localised hot spots causing head gasket failures etc. so then had to put signs under the bonnet warning of fans moving etc. when engine off. Many engines now have auxilary electricly driven water pumps to assist.
I agree older diesels often ran fairly cool, but in general engines run more efficiently when all the metals have expanded and settled down, which is why often diesels in particular sound quieter once correct engine temp reached.
Another point which is important is within reason it is not the coolant liquid running hot which causes the problem , more when it is allowed to boil and become a gas, as then it can reach much higher temp. in localised spots. Think of superheated steam!
This is the reason for a pressure cap on the coollant tank. From memory for every 1lb of pressure above the coolant water, the temperature it starts to boil raises by 1.5 degress Centigrade, so a 10 pound cap will stop water from boiling until 115 degrees Centigrade as I understand it. So that is the reason pressure cookers cook your food quicker, but also more important why never to release the radiator pressure cap on a hot engine, apart from the obvious danger of burning yourself, the water inside can turn to gas and very quickly damage/warp the cylinder head/gaskets etc.
Many radiator pressure caps these days have 1.2 Bar written on them, this equates to just under roughjly 18psi.
The older design car thermostats were fairly easy to test, looking like photo below left making them easy to test, however later ones are often like this and much more expensive to buy and replace.
As you may see the older design on left as it reaches correct temp. the wax stat allows the circular valve/flap to open at the top of the picture progressively allowing more water to flow through it.
I would contest the idea that engines use more oil (assuming the correct grade) at higher running temp. as the large alloy piston by then has expanded to provide a more efficient piston to bore seal than when running cool, this also explains why cold engines use more fuel.:)
In the old days thermostats were supplied by Smiths Industries and apart from temp. ranges were mostly interchangeable. It was common to buy a a "Winter" thermostat which opened at 88degrees Centigrade meaning the car heater and demister worked better.
Another point about radiator fans, in the mid 1970s I worked as foreman at a Mazda Dealership , a customer boght a brand new rwd 323 and wanted a Kenlowe electric fan fitted, which we did but had a problem even with the original water pump mounted fan removed to get the engine hot enough to test the fan relay settings, so in the end I put a board across the radiator and held the engine revs up a little whilst in the garage and eventually temp rose enough to test the new Kenlowe fan operation.
Subsequently I removed the metal water pump mounted fan on an old Singer Gazelle I was running, it never overheated under normal fast driving conditions, but the main benefit was improved fuel economy as no power lose from driving the fan. Interestingly I learnt that some car manufacturers declared engine horse power figures were done on a test bench minus all auxilaries, fan, generator, gearbox, etc. so were more "generous" than in real normal running cionditions.
 

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Ok so what I'm getting from this is, the temp gauge has no real relevance to the fans or the thermostat kicking in? Its an entity all on it's own just there to read the temp at the thermostat. Its not actually then controlling anything when that temp is reached. The things in charge of cooling stuff happening is the thermostat itself, which opens and closes using the wax method, and the radiator fan switch/stat which does similar.

Sooooooo........back to the fans for now i think. :)

I've ordered a new rad fan switch which i will get the garage to fit when they look at my waterpump leak (a whole other story). Hopefully replacing that will sort at least one of the fans kicking in, but i cant for the life of me get the other to kick in.

I've checked the relays again this morning and both def work.

The fans both work fine, as i can get them both on by bypassing the relay.

When im jumping/bypassing the cables at the rad switch, like i sucessfully did for the other fan, its not getting enough power to switch the relay. I think i read 4v when i jump that cable, where as the other gets a full 12v when i jump its cables at the rad switch.

I've tried with the ignition on, and the van running too with no joy.

I'm assuming some kind of connection issue somewhere. What kind of thing would limit the voltage that the switch portion of the relay is getting, down to 4v?

Many thanks all :)
 
As I suggested you may have a resistor fitted. See this thread., which includes photos.
I'm looking at the relay switch voltage though, as in, the voltage to just switch the relay. The power circuitry that runs the fan seems fine, as i can put a little jumper cable between the pins and the fan spins up. It's just the power to switch the relay and complete the fans circuitry that seems funny. Its showing 4v and that musn't be enough to flick the relay.
 
I'm looking at the relay switch voltage though, as in, the voltage to just switch the relay. The power circuitry that runs the fan seems fine, as i can put a little jumper cable between the pins and the fan spins up. It's just the power to switch the relay and complete the fans circuitry that seems funny. Its showing 4v and that musn't be enough to flick the relay.
Sorry I misunderstood. I use either of the terms, coil, or winding supply, to avoid confusion. Coil is shorter to type. Is the 4V with the relay disconnected? If so you are looking for a possibly badly corroded or open circuit. Modern multimeters are very sensitive.
 
Is it possible to physically read the temp. in the radiator to see if engine ever reaches high enough temp to activate sensor.
Alternatively can you test the sensor in a pan of water with a thermometer on a stove to see when a Ohm meter recognises it activating?
 
Sorry I misunderstood. I use either of the terms, coil, or winding supply, to avoid confusion. Coil is shorter to type. Is the 4V with the relay disconnected? If so you are looking for a possibly badly corroded or open circuit. Modern multimeters are very sensitive.
4v is what's been sent to the relay switch. Yes, it's what i read with the relay removed and a multimeter across 85 and 86 (i think). When I remove the jumper cable at the Rad Fan switch, I'm reading something like 20mV's
 
In other news.....

Does anyone know what this is?

1754233448165.png


Its got a single spade connector on it, but i found it with a badly corroded broken connector hanging next to it. I re-crimped a new spade and plugged it back in, but no idea what it is. Some kind of earth maybe?
 
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In other news.....

Does anyone know what this is?

View attachment 471221

Its got a single spade connector on it, but i found it with a badly corroded broken connector hanging next to it. I re-crimped a new spade and plugged it back in, but no idea what it is. Some kind of earth maybe?
Where on the engine is the mystery object located? If,, at rear near turbo, then possibly oil pressure switch. If on injection pump then stop solenoid, but you woud know if that was not connected. Another possibility is electrically heated injection advance device for cold starting. If the advance device is not working, then it could go unnoticed.
 
Where on the engine is the mystery object located? If,, at rear near turbo, then possibly oil pressure switch. If on injection pump then stop solenoid, but you woud know if that was not connected. Another possibility is electrically heated injection advance device for cold starting. If the advance device is not working, then it could go unnoticed.
It's front of the engine in the middle-ish.....

In this pic from above, you can just about see red spade plug
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...and again here...........
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Ahh ok. Interesting. Never had any issues starting it. In fact it starts so quick every time, right on the first turn in an instant.
You may find that the engine runs smoother, as it may have been running on permanent advance. On the subject of cold starting the engine will start at 0C or lower without assistance. The 2.8idTD may start on the first compression of any cylinder, whereas the 2.8jtd needs to discover which stroke it is on, and it may need nearly one turn of the camshaft to do this.

You may be interested in this Motor Roam article relating to cold starting.
 
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You may find that the engine runs smoother, as it may have been running on permanent advance. On the subject of cold starting the engine will start at 0C or lower without assistance. The 2.8idTD may start on the first compression of any cylinder, whereas the 2.8jtd needs to discover which stroke it is on, and it may need nearly one turn of the camshaft to do this.

You may be interested in this Motor Roam article relating to cold starting.
Ahhh nice! I should take it out for a drive and see. However I'm a bit reluctant at the mo with this waterpump issue. I'm thinking maybe the pully or whatever is driving it could be about to sheer off (Squeaking and leaking coming from down there somewhere). Waiting for the go ahead to take it to a garage. Really don't want it going before i get it on the ramps somewhere. :D
 
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