Technical Dash lights / electrical problem Question

[kmor panda]

Hello,

I have 1.1 active eco 2010.
in the last two months I've had the following issues with regards to warning lights.:

1. The immobiliser light (? orange car with a padlock) had come on a couple of times while driving. No issues driving, upon restarting the car at my destination it has gone off. (happened a couple of times a few weeks apart)
2. The airbag light that has always flashed upon starting the car for a few seconds, has come up with an X on it. No problems driving, upon a restart it has not come up with the X (has happened twice about a week apart).
3. The power steering red light has come on while driving at a low speed, and my steering has gone. This has been in car parks or at a road junction waiting to pull out. Restarting has fixed this right away - both the light and the steering come back. (this has happened 3 times in 8 weeks, prior to this it happened once about 6 years ago).

Any suggestions re problems or cost would be appreciated. The cost of a new to us secondhand car right now means we'd rather preserve this one for a little bit longer.

Does your instrument display clock also reset itself every time you start, or has the new battery solved that one?

The issue is all in related to the self centering mechanism of the steering wheel. Try this one and you will hear it -

1. Stop and park the car, straighten the steering wheel as best as you can and turn off the ignition removing the key.
2. Reinsert the key, but bring it to aux (first click) and ensure the fan and radio is off.
3. You should hear the fuel pump start, and then stop about 30 sec later.
4. Then it should be dead quiet.

If you hear a motor huming and stopping every few seconds, it is the electric motor in the steering column attempting to self center the steering wheel. This error normally continues as you are driving which is a heavy load on the electrics and can restrict battery charging, as when you use the steering for manouvering, normally the engine revs are at close to idle.

The solution I found is to recenter the steering wheel. Tracking on the 169 is wierd due to the electric assisted steering and its self centering. As a result, unless the tracking is done with the car in idle, it usually is slightly out. Also, the steering sensor is connected to a fixed point (outside tube of the steering column) and reading the position of the internal shaft (steering column). There is no direct connection between the steering wheel and the shaft that turns the steering rack other than a flat, semi-twisted steel. Turning the steering wheel causes the two shafts to increase seperation, which the steering module reads as 'rate of turn'. The direction being turned is read by the aforementioned steering angle sensor. According to the steering system, this steering angle sensor has a 0 position which the self centering steering system tries to achieve. This steering angle sensor, although cheap, is difficult to set up correctly as it has end lock positions on both directions. When you hit one of them ahead of what the system expects, the steeering systeem locks and you have to force the steering wheel around - indicated by the red dash indicator. This steering sensor is extremely precise, yet the electrics and gears in the steering motor has a certain amount of play. As a result, a fraction misalignment in centre position is constantly being corrected until it times out. This is where the extra load is comming from, and the extra work being put on the circuits of the steering system.

Over time and use, the steering column can twist out of alignment - it it held by two bolts at the top to a bracket bolted to the car, and this bracket moves slightly. The metal bracket can move. As a result, the center position of the column can be slightly out to the actual center point of the steering system - even in a correctly tracked car with perfect tires/wheels etc. Fiat align this with a lazer tool in production. What you need to do is work out the error, is it left or right. This can be determined when driving on a flat (pothole free road) - do you need to hold onto the steering wheel and pull it either left or right to ensure the car travels straight.

Add a washer (1-2mm thickness) opposite side to rotate the steering column to compensate for the movement. This will realign the column where your next step is to centre the tracking and then centre the electrical sensor. To centre the sensor, you will need a OBD2 reader connected to the port in the inside fusebox. Fiat don't like the Lidl / Aldi cheap reader, and even most of the ones online are junk. I suggest that you borrow one from a friend and see if that reads it, as the Fiat OBD2 code is kinda unique and only a few read it. I use an old Delphi one, the same make as the steering system to do this, but electrically centering the steering is the last item to do on the list, not the first.

Four years ago, when I got my Panda, the battery was low (although it was replaced within the last 8 months - I know, I did it for the person) the clock kept resetting itself (as it was when I replaced the battery 8 months prior), and the steering would lock out at the most unoppertune moments. Without a manual for the car, I took out the instrument cluster expecting there to be a battery backup for the clock that needed replacement. None there. I checked web, and even here and got advice to replace the steering column - a £700 reconditioned expense plus hours of work. It was only sitting in the car one evening with the better half while wating to collect another with the ignition on, radio and fan off that I kept hearing the steering motor kicking in. Even if I breathed on the steering wheel, the motor kicked in and turned the wheel ever so slightly. This was one evening I had driven a long journey and now with an ache in my right arm from pulling on the steering wheel to keep the car going straight.

Digging in to it, I realized the above - that the steering issue is a common fault and is created by the twisting of the steering column, not as others have stated, failure of the system. The system will eventually fail completely as carbon build up on the flattened relay contacts inside the module, and there are youtube videos of how to replace these relays. However, these videos also warn of how finicky the steering angle sensor is and advise not to touch it. - smart advice.

Once I fixed the steering, it has never locked out, battery has lasted 4+ years with no issues, and steering is light in 'City' and decent in 'Sport' (city switched off in some models, sport switched on in others - same circuit but inversely controlled. Secondly, I cured other electrical problems - even the slow electric windows speeded up to normal speed. I didn't even realize that they were slow.

 

[kmor panda]

I'll check next time I go out but i'm fairly sure the temp is always in the middle. The car does get toasty, but my 6am starts can take a wile to get up to temp & I feel the cold.

Air in coolant / low coolant / blocked interior rad are all causes of poor / slow heat.

In the 1.1, well in mine, there is a pipe from the outside (under the bottom of the windscreen at the instrument cluster) that is the air intake for the inside car. Leaves etc can get in this area, you need to remove both front wipers and the black plastic (unscrew it and pull it towards the nose of the car slightly to undo the clips that sit under the edge of the windscreen to remove it) to get to that area. There is supposed to be two drain holes in oblong rubber seals to drain water etc from this area. These, over time, get blocked. Once open, close to the wiper motor is the air intake for the cabin.

The next item on the line, in some pandas, is an air filter. Don't worry if yours hasn't got one as it slides in from above the clutch pedal to the left. Yours might be similar to mine - the rectangular hole the filter is supposed to go in is plastic welded shut / never was designed for a filter. If yours has an air filter, replace it as it is prob clogged.

Next item on the line is the fan and the internal heater matrix. The fan can be removed by loosing the one locating bolt above it (left hand side under the glove box, behind the gear leever) but it really is not needed to be removed. What I did to clean the dirt and dust was force compressed air into the air intake while the fan was running. Leave the doors open for this - otherwise the dust will be choking. Broken leaves etc can get past the fan and be lodged in the internal matrix, so blowing them out will allow more air to pass the matrix easier. You could, if you wish, stick the nozzle of a hover into one of the vents, but dust will come out and you will have to hover the car afterwards - so I find no advantage in that.

In mine, I loosened the bolts that attach the matrix to the plastic to allow me a little room to get a fine nozzle and of a hoover and/or brush in to try and get most of the big stuff out, but that is your choice and risk as if you move the matrix a little too much, there is a possibility of cracking the two pipes that go into to it.

 

[kmor panda]

15 minutes is a VERY long time for a 1.2 FIRE to get fully warm. It's likely the engine thermostat has failed.
Go for a drive from cold start. Stop after 1 mile or a couple of minutes and check the radiator top hose. If it's warm, your thermostat has failed (they stick open by default). The top hose and radiator should remain cold until the engine is up to temperature.

The car is a 1.1, not a 1.2. Fiat Panda 1.1 on idle can take up to 15 mins + to reach full operating temp - and I have a new water pump, stat & coolant where it is full, pressurised and not leaking nor any head gasket issue. Over the 4 odd years I have had the car, I have basically replaced every seal in the engine including timing belt and water pump / stat. It is 2006 and has a Fiat rated top speed of 150, where I have had it up to 165.

The easy to check it the stat has failed is to, using a lazer thermomoter, measure the rad hose temp and measure the bottom left of the engine block temp - ie beside the entry to the water pump avoiding the exhaust manifold and compare them from cold. The engine temp should raise slowly while the rad top hose temp shoud jump from ambient to hot. Secondly, another way to read this is to compare the actual idle speed of the cold engine - it should start circa 900 and then drop to 750 and then stay there - even before the engine heats up. If there is an issue in the stat, the engine will idle high at circa 850 and/or start at 900, drop to 750 and then kinda race up and down to 800. This is without any extra load like lights, rear demister etc on. But again, this does not definitively state a engine stat.

If you suspect the engine stat is an issue, replace it with the timing belt & water pump. 169 is one of the easier timing belts to change (tipex old belt and cam & crank wheel, release & remove idler wheel, replace water pump, transfer tipex marks to new belt. Line them up with tipex marks on cam & crank wheels. Tension idler wheel - replace cover, engine mount & replace stat. Refil coolant and bleed = job done. If you suspect there is blockage in coolant system, firstly before timing belt etc change, add a flush when the engine is cold to completely flush* the system, run it till hot, drain it and then change t/belt, water pump, stat etc. and then flush out with water before filling with new coolant & bleeding system. Most people could handle a t/belt water pump change in a few hours, but get the 3 part (belt, pump, idler wheel). Some sets also come with the snakes teeth spanner, but a two pin circlip pliers also can do the job. Idler wheel is self adjusting, but you need to set the tension according to the marks on outer of same to inner of same. It might be a good idea to remove s/plugs when doing this, but with the 169 engine, it really is not needed unless you are using the locking tools, moving it to TDC etc. Then, you don't need the tipex marks to do the job, but even at TDC + lock tools, it is easy to set it 1 tooth out. The tipex marks ensure that the new belt goes exactly back on where the old belt was. The other option, as used by Fuzz, is to release the tension of the old belt, split it lengthways so you can remove the front half of the belt, slide the new belt on to the other half of the old belt, cut off the remains of the old belt and slide the new one on all the way and then retension. It is not a way I'd advise as it is possible, when splitting the belt to cut it all through thus leaving you with not knowing the timing of cam and crank and needing to get a set of lock tools to do the job etc. Also, the Fuzz way doesn't allow you the freedom to replace the water pump.

*Flush additives have specific instructions - follow what yours state.