Technical Compression test help

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Technical Compression test help

If oil is draining back overnight, the filter could be at fault.
There should be a rubber diaphragm under the six outer holes, which is the anti-drain valve. In the past I have been offered filters for the FIRE engine without this, so not all application listings are correct. The filters without the valve are only suitable for applications where the filter is hanging vertically.

Short journeys, which can dump unburnt fuel into the oil, can cause this diaphragm to distort.
 
These engines are happiest on 10w40 semi synthetic. They do not need (or want) anything more sophisticated. Super thin oils like Mobil 1 get burnt so the level can quickly drop dangerously low. The start up rattle is a sign your engine is getting trashed. Mine make no abnormal noises on engine start - hot or cold and has always had ordinary 10w40 semi synth

These engines are happiest on 10w40 semi synthetic. They do not need (or want) anything more sophisticated. Super thin oils like Mobil 1 get burnt so the level can quickly drop dangerously low. The start up rattle is a sign your engine is getting trashed. Mine make no abnormal noises on engine start - hot or cold and has always had ordinary 10w40 semi synth.
I cant say I agree with your comment re mobil 1 which I have used in considerable range of cars nornally aspirated, turbo and supercharged, over the last 35 years and sone 900,000 miles without ever seeing any oil consupmtion, but Castrol edge titaniun is going to be its next feed as the 2011 car stopped rattling after the Petronas oil was removed. We do few miles in Ruby the 14 car and at low speed, but its going to do a long trip in a couple of weeks so it will be done before that. and a fill of Edge titanium introduced. I cant say I trust Castrol much as I used many many years ago found Castrol GTX was an oil that wouldnt produce good oil pressure even on a brand new engine. In that case a swap to shell did the trick as did esso and then mobil 1. I rate Shell Helix oils and used this half the time on my Bravo which did 100K miles trouble free, but have not looked at what shell do in the right grade for the Panda.. The 1.2 is such an ancient design I dont suppose the oil is wildy critical, the twinair gets exactly what is specified as its pretty clear its a critical component doing lubrication and hydraulic duties. As Amazon are doing the Castro. edge 4litres for £32 its a done deal.
 
Every time I used Mobil 1 in engines built for thicker oils, it was burnt rapidly. That includes motorbikes (Yamaha XJ 900 and BMW R1200), car diesels and car petrols. Mobil 1 and equivalents are fantastic oils in engines built to use them. They are not suitable for older engines such as the Fiat FIRE. They ARE a requirement for engines like Twinair. I do not know if these super oils are suitable for MultiAir as that uses a FIRE block and bottom end, so suspect it's not ideal.
 
Let’s have a recap and try and get everything into one post

It rattles at start up. Is that at idle or under acceleration

has a oil catch can to stop the MAP sensor clogging up

It smokes (blue/grey) on start start up. Is this straight from fire up or on acceleration. Valve seals on these are proper blue. When they are really bad if the car has sat for a week it became hard to start and requires a few pumps of the accelerator to smooth out the idle with quite a lot of smoke

Compression test is 150psi compared to known good 210 ish but is even over all cylinders. 150psi is enough for it run goodish
Possibly timed half a tooth out. It not the only car @ 150psi. Again we don’t know if the gauge is correct.

No idea where to start diagnostic wise. Without doing too much work. When the plugs are out you can turn the engine Over so each piston is at top dead centre and inspect the piston tops. There only a few mm down the spark plug hole. I would be suspicious if the piston tops were too clean

Drive up some ramps. Remove the bleed screw from the heater hose fill up the coolant until it flows out of the screw hole. Start the car and look for bubbles. An occasional one is normal a steady stream isn’t.
 
Every time I used Mobil 1 in engines built for thicker oils, it was burnt rapidly. That includes motorbikes (Yamaha XJ 900 and BMW R1200), car diesels and car petrols. Mobil 1 and equivalents are fantastic oils in engines built to use them. They are not suitable for older engines such as the Fiat FIRE. They ARE a requirement for engines like Twinair. I do not know if these super oils are suitable for MultiAir as that uses a FIRE block and bottom end, so suspect it's not
 
Let’s have a recap and try and get everything into one post
Thats about it. It does a puff of blueish smoke and will sometimes do another if revved. Its not massive, but not right. Your idea about timing is a bit alarming, but the belt was done by Inchcape Toyota so who knows if it was right. I am going to see if I can tell when the valves are shut relative to TDC and will look at the cylinders withe a camera. I dont really see the pressures being down so much as its only done 64K and we had it at 35K. Its got a very full history too. If its really down 25% I think its for the chop one way or another. I want to reduce by 1 car but daughter 1 - with Seat - dragging feet on changing. We offered her our 2014 car for £4k it needs rear dampers and a tyre as one is now 9 years old andI would do the back box which has loose baffles. If she doesnt have it we will give it to daughter 2 and take the 2011 car back and flog it. ATM I do want to get it right though as she likes her 169. Im sure it cant be 25% down or power would be off and it easily holds its own with the newer car. May be lacks a bit of grunt on very steep hills. Timing off does feel it might be on the money. Would it not throw a warning up if out on timing as its the VVTI engine it would have to have done a phonic wheel relearn?
 
One tooth advanced will throw an engine check light. It’s well down on compression and is even over all cylinders

I haven’t measured the compression in this condition but is noticeable when turning the crank by hand

It dose fire up fine but the engine light causes it to be in limp mode and a max of 3K revs

Half a tooth out i.e cam pulley loosened to fit a belt but the cam pulley alignment tool was not used will run fine and there is no error light. Never tried for myself so don’t know what it drives like
 
Your idea about timing is a bit alarming, but the belt was done by Inchcape Toyota so who knows if it was right.
This engine needs the timing tools to do properly. A Toyota dealer would be unlikely to have them, and unlikely to buy them for one job. Their parts supplier may have a tool loan service, many do, for trade customers only. Ideally, you need someone nearby who can lend you the tools to just check if they fit, confirming the timing.
Was it the Toyota dealer that put the current 'thin' oil in? If so, that smacks of 'use what they have', rather than get the correct stuff in, which also brings doubt abut the belt job.
 
The timing belt "can" be replaced with just the crank locking tool. Some say it's better that way. However, tightening the tensioner pulls the slack side of the belt and moves the cam 1 tooth out of alignment. If you paint-mark the cam before removing the old belt you can see the shift and then refit the belt to correct the issue. Conveniently, the cam get moved 1 tooth back, so it's easy to reposition and repeat.

To do the job correctly, both cam and crank have to be locked AND the cam wheel nut has to be loosened. This allows the belt to tension correctly. The cam wheel is then back-held with a special tool while the nut is torqued up.
 
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To do the job correctly, both cam and crank have to be locked AND the cam wheel nut has to be loosened. This allows the belt to tension correctly. The cam wheel is then back-held with a special tool while the nut is torqued up.
Here’s how I see it

The VVT camshaft pull is set precisely with the correct setting tool

There are three tool needed
1 camshaft lock
2 crankshaft lock
3 camshaft pulley lock

According to Elearn, conti etc it’s not timed via the belt. There is several degrees of movement with the belt in place. There is only one correct timing position per tooth which is set via the use of the proper tool.

The only reason for loosening the pulley is speed. The belt will not quite fit correctly with both the cam and crank both still locked in place. But the pulley still has to be set afterwards with the correct tool. This is not in the same position as it wants to sit naturally. The tight side should be very tight.

The belt can be changed with or without loosening the pulley. As long as all three setting tools are used the results are identical.

Changing the belt using only the belt as the third timing tool will give variable results and IMO is incorrect. Don’t believe me fit the cam locking tool first as soon as it can drop in, just see how much further the crank shaft can rotate

With keyed pulleys and shafts it was never a problem they can only be fitted correctly but to save the machining and assembly time of both parts we have to use a setting tool instead

These are the bits required to be removed to replace the belt.

I first check the timing of the pulley with the locking set. If it’s correct I leave it alone and remove the cam locking tool to fit the belt

I do also change the “O” seals in the cam cover at the same time. 90% of the time they will have gone hard

Just to confuse the issue some other Fiat engines are timed by the belt, and there are some online guides have copied and pasted them and changed the title to 500 or panda



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When I timed our 1.2 with cam and crank locked, the front (driven side) of the cam belt was loose. To be expected as there was no way for the tension to equalise around the whole belt. I did not have a cam wheel holding tool so marked the cam wheel with Tippex and Sharpie pen and removed the cam lock. Tensioning the belt pulled the cam one tooth backwards. Repeating the belt tensioning with the cam advanced one tooth finished up with the marks perfectly aligned. I was happy with that so boxed-up the engine and its running just as well as it always has.

HOWEVER this was the first replacement cam belt so timing was factory settings. ANY DOUBT on the timing would need to have the job done with the cam wheel free to rotate.
 
This engine needs the timing tools to do properly. A Toyota dealer would be unlikely to have them, and unlikely to buy them for one job. Their parts supplier may have a tool loan service, many do, for trade customers only. Ideally, you need someone nearby who can lend you the tools to just check if they fit, confirming the timing.
Was it the Toyota dealer that put the current 'thin' oil in? If so, that smacks of 'use what they have', rather than get the correct stuff in, which also brings doubt abut the belt job.
No the KP (knatts ....)oil was me. I did both cars with Petronas Syntium 5w/40 and its clearly a very poor oil. I have just changed Ruby (2014) to Castrol Edge and was shocked at the oil that was drainedout . 2700 miles down the oil was rust coloured and rather a lot of nasty bubbles too. I shoved half a litre of cheap 5/40 through and drained that out too and refilled with Edge and what a difference. I think based on the the posts here that are really helpful, a new timing belt is called for on the 2011 car its pretty well 4 years now so not worth adjusting. I shall get it done either by Fiat or my local man> I will share these posts with him as he seems pretty good and listens. He the owner of a local garage and says he does all cam belts himself to ensure there are no issues. He should have the tools as he bought a set for Fiats when he did my Bravo. Thanks for the detailed information. If I felt upto it I would have a go myself but its not quite on just now
 
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