Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
Might be some tasty jobs starting up Fiat over there aswell:chin:
Might be some tasty jobs starting up Fiat over there aswell:chin:
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Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
so does this mean yank tanks might start turning corners then???
so does this mean yank tanks might start turning corners then???
chiefpontiac
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Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
The days of 55 hp MGTC's outperforming 145 hp Mercury V8s on the twistys ended over 50 years ago. According to Road & Track, a Chevy Cobalt SS outcorners an Audi A5 Quattro, at half the price.
Although Aussie built, Pontiac's G8 outcorners and out accelerates BMW's 550i. And the new Cadillac CTS-V recently set a new record for sedans at "The Ring"
The days of 55 hp MGTC's outperforming 145 hp Mercury V8s on the twistys ended over 50 years ago. According to Road & Track, a Chevy Cobalt SS outcorners an Audi A5 Quattro, at half the price.
Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
to be fair, american cars are improving, but in general they are still hugely behind european cars. grip is easy to achieve for any car, its how you translate grip into how well the car comunicates and responds to inputs thats the challenge. then try and combine that with comfort!!!
NO american car has achieved that yet, but they will eventually. however if you look at the quality of american cars, i seriously doubt they will ever match even average euro standards at a decent price. even the most modern, expensive american cars are only just reaching the standards of early 90's puegeots!, they use the cheapest recycled materials they can get away with.
this fiat/chrysler tie up is good buisness for all imo, fiat get access to a huge american market, and potentially massive profits of smaller cars and also access to some older mercedes technology, chrysler get some decent cars that they can sell in the mean time
im not up on the details this deal, but if daimler/chrysler own mercedes (chrysler getting access to old mercedes chassis designs and engines) does that technically mean fiat now have a very small stake in mercedes?
to be fair, american cars are improving, but in general they are still hugely behind european cars. grip is easy to achieve for any car, its how you translate grip into how well the car comunicates and responds to inputs thats the challenge. then try and combine that with comfort!!!
NO american car has achieved that yet, but they will eventually. however if you look at the quality of american cars, i seriously doubt they will ever match even average euro standards at a decent price. even the most modern, expensive american cars are only just reaching the standards of early 90's puegeots!, they use the cheapest recycled materials they can get away with.
this fiat/chrysler tie up is good buisness for all imo, fiat get access to a huge american market, and potentially massive profits of smaller cars and also access to some older mercedes technology, chrysler get some decent cars that they can sell in the mean time
im not up on the details this deal, but if daimler/chrysler own mercedes (chrysler getting access to old mercedes chassis designs and engines) does that technically mean fiat now have a very small stake in mercedes?
PandaCraig
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Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
Think we need to find out a few more details before coming down either side of the fence on this one but think this is a more positive move for Fiat if its to survive than the PSA deal.
Chrysler will not go bust in the medium term as the US government would not allow it, same goes for Fiat, it would be propped up with 'loans' like the UK banking system. So that leaves the benefits for both companies: 500, Panda 4x4?, GP, Bravo, Alfa range sold in US pretty quickly and eventually manufactured in US. Fiat moving some or all production of 500 to Italy to secure jobs there aided by increased sales in US and emerging markets. Chrysler having access to Fiat technology, engines etc to speed along development of its smaller car range and access to European market places via Fiat dealers. Chrysler imo would struggle to sell family cars in Europe going up against Ford, Opel, BMW, VW, Toyota so there benefits would come from selling and then producing Fiats for consumption in their own back yard and surrounding countries.
My only concern is historically US motor companies haven't had the best track record when it comes to tie ups with overseas makers, lets hope this doesn't go down the same route or drag Fiat down with the failing US car industry!
Think we need to find out a few more details before coming down either side of the fence on this one but think this is a more positive move for Fiat if its to survive than the PSA deal.
Chrysler will not go bust in the medium term as the US government would not allow it, same goes for Fiat, it would be propped up with 'loans' like the UK banking system. So that leaves the benefits for both companies: 500, Panda 4x4?, GP, Bravo, Alfa range sold in US pretty quickly and eventually manufactured in US. Fiat moving some or all production of 500 to Italy to secure jobs there aided by increased sales in US and emerging markets. Chrysler having access to Fiat technology, engines etc to speed along development of its smaller car range and access to European market places via Fiat dealers. Chrysler imo would struggle to sell family cars in Europe going up against Ford, Opel, BMW, VW, Toyota so there benefits would come from selling and then producing Fiats for consumption in their own back yard and surrounding countries.
My only concern is historically US motor companies haven't had the best track record when it comes to tie ups with overseas makers, lets hope this doesn't go down the same route or drag Fiat down with the failing US car industry!
danielsydney
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PandaCraig
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Re: Fiat buys 35% of Chrysler.
Obama won't let the US car industry go to he wall in his first term in office, the man wants a legacy and he won't get it by allowing millions of people to be made redundent and closing down an entire city inside his 12 months. Anyway he'll be too busy getting troops out of Iraq, sending more to Afganistan, closing down Guantanemo, restructuring the ecomomy, papering over the cracks from bush and building roads!
Obama won't let the US car industry go to he wall in his first term in office, the man wants a legacy and he won't get it by allowing millions of people to be made redundent and closing down an entire city inside his 12 months. Anyway he'll be too busy getting troops out of Iraq, sending more to Afganistan, closing down Guantanemo, restructuring the ecomomy, papering over the cracks from bush and building roads!
Most Fiat products are too small and low-powered for Americans. At best they are very niche products and some of them are getting long in the tooth. The Croma hasn't sold in Europe and the same would be true in America. Fiat has none of the large elegant coupes and delightful rear-drive sports cars so beloved of Americans in the 60s and 70s - not withstanding the reliability problems No, I believe Fiat wants outlets for the revised Alfa Range. This lack is one of the major factors that has prevented Alfa re-entering the American market. Fiat/Alfa is also looking for a new rear drive chassis.
I doubt if Fiat is too interested in redundant Mercedes engineering either, it was pretty duff and resulted in some clunky cars which did Merc no good at all.
So all in all Fiat seems to be getting sales outlets at not too great a cost, and probably some plant to assemble cars deemed desirable in the US.
Currently, bar the 500, which is admired by American car buffs, Fiat itself has no product - possibly excepting the Bravo - which would sell in the US.
No, I believe Fiat wants outlets for the revised Alfa Range. This lack is one of the major factors that has prevented Alfa re-entering the American market. Fiat/Alfa is also looking for a new rear drive chassis.I doubt if Fiat is too interested in redundant Mercedes engineering either, it was pretty duff and resulted in some clunky cars which did Merc no good at all.
So all in all Fiat seems to be getting sales outlets at not too great a cost, and probably some plant to assemble cars deemed desirable in the US.
Currently, bar the 500, which is admired by American car buffs, Fiat itself has no product - possibly excepting the Bravo - which would sell in the US.
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The PSA deal is still being considerd by Fiat... loads of reports in Italian press today about it, if it happens Fiat-Chrysler-PSA will be third biggest company in the world behind GM and Toyota... if you ask me it sounds like a new British Leyland type empire
All the companies are scrabbling around and huddling for protection in these dire economic times. Ultimately there is too much product chasing too few customers - how this sorts itself out we can only wait and see. But as for a new British Leyland
The American market doesn't tend to go for small hatchbacks, so for the GP and Bravo to do well in the US, they'd need a bit of a re-design... Perhaps the Fiat Linea would be more appealing to the US market.
But don't expect these Americanised Fiats to appear with a Chrysler badge on it – they're much more likely to use the Dodge brand for them.
Anyway, from what I've read, it looks like the only cars Fiat are interested in selling the US in more-or-less their current forms are the 500, and the more up-market Alfas. (I don't think there's a big market in the US for the MiTo, but I'd expect something like the 8C would do well over there.)
But don't expect these Americanised Fiats to appear with a Chrysler badge on it – they're much more likely to use the Dodge brand for them.
Anyway, from what I've read, it looks like the only cars Fiat are interested in selling the US in more-or-less their current forms are the 500, and the more up-market Alfas. (I don't think there's a big market in the US for the MiTo, but I'd expect something like the 8C would do well over there.)
Yes. And they are working to lessen the weight of the Alfas and add better performance. The problem is, the Alfas will immediately be compared with BMWs, and probably be found wanting.
I think it would be a huge mistake, however, to re-brand the Fiats. They need the European identity to set them apart.
I agree about the Linea though. It is very handsome and roomy and, notwithstanding its boot, would I believe do well here too. It looks far smarter than it has a right to ( I've seen a few abroad) and is apparently very quiet and well sprung.
A couple of good big, powerful Alfas, possibly a high powered niche Mito, and the 500. That'll do to be going on with. I live in hope.
I think it would be a huge mistake, however, to re-brand the Fiats. They need the European identity to set them apart.
I agree about the Linea though. It is very handsome and roomy and, notwithstanding its boot, would I believe do well here too. It looks far smarter than it has a right to ( I've seen a few abroad) and is apparently very quiet and well sprung.
A couple of good big, powerful Alfas, possibly a high powered niche Mito, and the 500. That'll do to be going on with. I live in hope.
Everything is so up in the air at present its hard to not uncover a new story which further muddies the waters.
It does seem as N500 said that the PSA Fiat merger is still being considered after being reported on Wall Street Journal and Reuters today, the article makes referance to Chrylser deal two days previous, so not an old story regurgitated.
"Reuters, The Associated Press
January 22, 2009 at 7:18 AM EST
MILAN — Fiat SpA's founding family is weighing a capital increase of about €2-billion ($2.58-billion U.S.) with an eye to a possible merger with France's PSA Peugeot Citroen, an Italian daily reported.
The capital increase by the Agnelli family's Exor holding company would aim at keeping a significant stake in a merged company, La Repubblica said on Thursday without citing sources.
The Agnellis have about 30 per cent of Fiat through Exor.
Shares in Fiat, Europe's sixth-biggest car maker by unit sales, were down 3.15 per cent at €4.31 at 0902 GMT.
PSA was up 7.12 per cent at €13.855 as the DJ Stoxx auto index was 1.23 per cent firmer.
The news comes two days after Fiat announced an alliance with U.S. auto maker Chrysler LLC.
Fiat and Exor declined to comment.
A PSA spokesman also had no comment apart from saying the French car maker's priority was to come out of the crisis gripping the car industry.
Fiat and PSA are Europe's leaders in small cars which have low carbon dioxide emissions and are suited for city traffic.
Italy's Il Sole 24 Ore business daily also reported on Thursday that Fiat has been working for a month to obtain a syndicated credit line of up to €5-billion.
Italian banks UniCredit SpA and Intesa Sanpaolo are willing to subscribe a total of €1-billion to €1.5-billion, it said without identifying its sources.
“Peugeot's market cap is currently €3-billion and a complete takeover by Fiat could be financed with the rumoured €5-billion loan,” UniCredit debt analyst Sven Kreitmair said in a morning note.
“A combined Fiat-Chrysler-Peugeot group would be the third largest auto company in the world after Toyota and GM with a total production of 8.8 million vehicles (2007 figures),” he said.
Fiat and PSA have been working together since 1978 and have two joint ventures, making vans and multi-purpose vehicles in the north of France and central Italy. They also teamed up with Tofas for a car factory in Bursa, Turkey.
PSA also has co-operation deals with Ford Motor Co, Germany's BMW and Japan's Mitsubishi Corp. Chief executive officer Christian Streiff has said he wants to deepen the existing partnerships rather than add new partners.
Fiat on Thursday reported a 69.8 per cent drop in fourth-quarter profit on a slump in demand in Western Europe and the economic slowdown in South America.
Net profit for the last three months of last year was €180-million down from €597-million in the same period of 2007.
Full year profit was down 16.2 per cent from €2.05-billion to €1.72-billion.
Fiat agricultural equipment unit CNH Global NV reported fourth-quarter earnings of 49 cents a share excluding items, below analysts' forecast."
It does seem as N500 said that the PSA Fiat merger is still being considered after being reported on Wall Street Journal and Reuters today, the article makes referance to Chrylser deal two days previous, so not an old story regurgitated.
"Reuters, The Associated Press
January 22, 2009 at 7:18 AM EST
MILAN — Fiat SpA's founding family is weighing a capital increase of about €2-billion ($2.58-billion U.S.) with an eye to a possible merger with France's PSA Peugeot Citroen, an Italian daily reported.
The capital increase by the Agnelli family's Exor holding company would aim at keeping a significant stake in a merged company, La Repubblica said on Thursday without citing sources.
The Agnellis have about 30 per cent of Fiat through Exor.
Shares in Fiat, Europe's sixth-biggest car maker by unit sales, were down 3.15 per cent at €4.31 at 0902 GMT.
PSA was up 7.12 per cent at €13.855 as the DJ Stoxx auto index was 1.23 per cent firmer.
The news comes two days after Fiat announced an alliance with U.S. auto maker Chrysler LLC.
Fiat and Exor declined to comment.
A PSA spokesman also had no comment apart from saying the French car maker's priority was to come out of the crisis gripping the car industry.
Fiat and PSA are Europe's leaders in small cars which have low carbon dioxide emissions and are suited for city traffic.
Italy's Il Sole 24 Ore business daily also reported on Thursday that Fiat has been working for a month to obtain a syndicated credit line of up to €5-billion.
Italian banks UniCredit SpA and Intesa Sanpaolo are willing to subscribe a total of €1-billion to €1.5-billion, it said without identifying its sources.
“Peugeot's market cap is currently €3-billion and a complete takeover by Fiat could be financed with the rumoured €5-billion loan,” UniCredit debt analyst Sven Kreitmair said in a morning note.
“A combined Fiat-Chrysler-Peugeot group would be the third largest auto company in the world after Toyota and GM with a total production of 8.8 million vehicles (2007 figures),” he said.
Fiat and PSA have been working together since 1978 and have two joint ventures, making vans and multi-purpose vehicles in the north of France and central Italy. They also teamed up with Tofas for a car factory in Bursa, Turkey.
PSA also has co-operation deals with Ford Motor Co, Germany's BMW and Japan's Mitsubishi Corp. Chief executive officer Christian Streiff has said he wants to deepen the existing partnerships rather than add new partners.
Fiat on Thursday reported a 69.8 per cent drop in fourth-quarter profit on a slump in demand in Western Europe and the economic slowdown in South America.
Net profit for the last three months of last year was €180-million down from €597-million in the same period of 2007.
Full year profit was down 16.2 per cent from €2.05-billion to €1.72-billion.
Fiat agricultural equipment unit CNH Global NV reported fourth-quarter earnings of 49 cents a share excluding items, below analysts' forecast."
Further to this Daimler one day after Fiat announcement wants to sell remaining stake in Chrslyer.
"MORE HARD TIMES FOR CHRYSLER?
Daimler looks to sell remaining stake in the struggling firm.
After yesterday's news of Chrysler handing over a 35% stake to FIAT, today we have learned that Daimler AG wants out of its 19.9% stake in the flailing American auto giant.
Daimler sold 80.1% of the Chrysler group to a private equity firm back in 2007, for a reported sum of $7.4 billion.
Now Daimler is apparently trying to divest itself of its remaining share of the firm, but is unlikely to see the same sort of valuation on the remaining equity.
This news comes as new US president Barack Obama enters office, and all eyes will be on him in his first few weeks in the top job for action to heal the troubled US car market."
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=19266
"MORE HARD TIMES FOR CHRYSLER?
Daimler looks to sell remaining stake in the struggling firm.
After yesterday's news of Chrysler handing over a 35% stake to FIAT, today we have learned that Daimler AG wants out of its 19.9% stake in the flailing American auto giant.
Daimler sold 80.1% of the Chrysler group to a private equity firm back in 2007, for a reported sum of $7.4 billion.
Now Daimler is apparently trying to divest itself of its remaining share of the firm, but is unlikely to see the same sort of valuation on the remaining equity.
This news comes as new US president Barack Obama enters office, and all eyes will be on him in his first few weeks in the top job for action to heal the troubled US car market."
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=19266
Daimler have said in the past that their 20% of Chrysler is basically worthless – the cost of divesting themselves of it would eat up whatever it could possibly get for it.
And considering that Fiat got 35% of Chrysler for effectively nothing, it looks like Daimler's valuation is about right.
Depending on how confident they are of success with Chrysler, and how flush they are at the moment, they may well take that 19.9% of Daimler's hands sooner rather than later.
As for a PSA-Fiat merger, I have my doubts, but stranger things have happened.
And considering that Fiat got 35% of Chrysler for effectively nothing, it looks like Daimler's valuation is about right.
Depending on how confident they are of success with Chrysler, and how flush they are at the moment, they may well take that 19.9% of Daimler's hands sooner rather than later.
As for a PSA-Fiat merger, I have my doubts, but stranger things have happened.
The talk was of 35% possibily turning to a 55% share.
Maybe Daimlers 19.9% is the possible extra?
Maybe Daimlers 19.9% is the possible extra?
PandaCraig
New member
Good point well put Mr Beast. Can't see Daimler holding on to their shares for too long. 19.9% of a massive company in debt is still a hell a lot of debt! If they can ship them out and clear their liability to any costs i'm sure it'd be a starter.
Supa_Steve
New member
Wow.... Very interesting to see what the rest of the world thinks about this.
From my pov over here in the US I see nothing but good for Fiat finally getting itself back in our market from this alliance. And no, I'm not for seeing this in support of Chrysler. I was and still am against the Big 3 bailout and am for them to go out of business....But that's for a different time.
No, This from my view is going to be the network to bring back Fiat to the states. And most likely they'll use Chrysler dealerships to sell them out of. I drive a Scion xA, a product made by Toyota and sold out of Toyota dealerships as a niche brand. Mini Coopers are sold out of BMW dealers, and Smart is sold out of Mercedes dealers....and This in my opinion will be the same. Will Fiat have a problem selling cars like the 500 here? No. The Mini Coopers do really well over here, and even though we get the crappy Mitsubishi 3 cylinder engine Smart cars and not the diesels like the rest of the world that gets the awesome gas mileage......they're still selling. And extremely well I might add since I always see them all over the place.
I'm sure that Dodge/Chrysler will get afew models that are just reskined Fiats.... And I know that Fiat was serious about bringing commercial trucks here as well...which will most likely be sold as Dodges. Fiat, I think they just want some stake in the Jeep brand. That brand has heritage and is still fairly popular, and the only real brand of Chrysler that prospecting buyers really wanted.
As far as Diamler goes....well if they get rid of their remaining stake in Chrysler they're still not 100% done with them. If they stuck with just the Crossfire which was the first car of the merger to blend Chyrsler and Mercedes....than yes they could have more easily severed ties. But since they decided by towards the end of their ownership to pump alot of their parts into Chrysler they're stuck with supplying/manufacturing parts for Chrysler. All those Charger/Magnums/300s, and now Challengers use the S-Class chassis, suspension, transmission/axle....and I'm fairly certain that with the laws/rules in place a Dodge/Chrysler dealership (or any company really) needs to be able to supply/have access to replacement parts for an 8-10 year period. So Diamler "screwed the pooch" so to speak on that one.
Alfa Romeo is definitly coming back for sure. All 50 examples on the 8C Competizione were sold within the day, and all by now have been delivered to the states. So Fiat has definitly gotten their feet wet in our market again. And I'm extremely certain that the Alfas will be sold out of Maserati/Ferrari dealerships mostly since they're upscaled cars. It wouldn't surprise me if they too were sold out of Chrysler dealers since there isn't a Maserati dealer on every corner. This deal is just another big step into getting back over here.
As far as Americans liking the cars?....Well if they can sell those Smart cars over here so well, I see the 500 having no problem. Those Smart cars sell from $11,000 up to $21,000, and they are definitly not worth it. Without the diesel they're just a fashion statement really, since there are alot of cars that are much bigger, more powerfull, and get just as good mpg sold here. The 500 seats 4, can haul actual stuff, looks really damn good, and I'm sure can beat it in mpg.
When I got the rare opportunity to see Jim's 500 in person I just fell in love with the car even more. It's a really awesome little car with plenty of room for my 6'2" frame. If they're bringing over the Abarth SS version, Fiat will have a definite sale from me. And if they can pull off getting the diesel version here I know my Dad and my Uncle will definitly be in line to get temselves one...especially since gas prices will be spiking up again soon. That's 3 sales right there And hopefully if this little article is true, we'll have them here by next year http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/22/report-fiat-500-may-come-to-u-s-for-2010-sorry-canada/ Just in time too since I'm looking to sell my car within the year and waiting to see what the rest of the Car Show Season reveals. But if they can get the car here by next year, I can definitly hold out....since I haven't seen anything sold over here that I absolutely must own
From my pov over here in the US I see nothing but good for Fiat finally getting itself back in our market from this alliance. And no, I'm not for seeing this in support of Chrysler. I was and still am against the Big 3 bailout and am for them to go out of business....But that's for a different time.
No, This from my view is going to be the network to bring back Fiat to the states. And most likely they'll use Chrysler dealerships to sell them out of. I drive a Scion xA, a product made by Toyota and sold out of Toyota dealerships as a niche brand. Mini Coopers are sold out of BMW dealers, and Smart is sold out of Mercedes dealers....and This in my opinion will be the same. Will Fiat have a problem selling cars like the 500 here? No. The Mini Coopers do really well over here, and even though we get the crappy Mitsubishi 3 cylinder engine Smart cars and not the diesels like the rest of the world that gets the awesome gas mileage......they're still selling. And extremely well I might add since I always see them all over the place.
I'm sure that Dodge/Chrysler will get afew models that are just reskined Fiats.... And I know that Fiat was serious about bringing commercial trucks here as well...which will most likely be sold as Dodges. Fiat, I think they just want some stake in the Jeep brand. That brand has heritage and is still fairly popular, and the only real brand of Chrysler that prospecting buyers really wanted.
As far as Diamler goes....well if they get rid of their remaining stake in Chrysler they're still not 100% done with them. If they stuck with just the Crossfire which was the first car of the merger to blend Chyrsler and Mercedes....than yes they could have more easily severed ties. But since they decided by towards the end of their ownership to pump alot of their parts into Chrysler they're stuck with supplying/manufacturing parts for Chrysler. All those Charger/Magnums/300s, and now Challengers use the S-Class chassis, suspension, transmission/axle....and I'm fairly certain that with the laws/rules in place a Dodge/Chrysler dealership (or any company really) needs to be able to supply/have access to replacement parts for an 8-10 year period. So Diamler "screwed the pooch" so to speak on that one.
Alfa Romeo is definitly coming back for sure. All 50 examples on the 8C Competizione were sold within the day, and all by now have been delivered to the states. So Fiat has definitly gotten their feet wet in our market again. And I'm extremely certain that the Alfas will be sold out of Maserati/Ferrari dealerships mostly since they're upscaled cars. It wouldn't surprise me if they too were sold out of Chrysler dealers since there isn't a Maserati dealer on every corner. This deal is just another big step into getting back over here.
As far as Americans liking the cars?....Well if they can sell those Smart cars over here so well, I see the 500 having no problem. Those Smart cars sell from $11,000 up to $21,000, and they are definitly not worth it. Without the diesel they're just a fashion statement really, since there are alot of cars that are much bigger, more powerfull, and get just as good mpg sold here. The 500 seats 4, can haul actual stuff, looks really damn good, and I'm sure can beat it in mpg.
When I got the rare opportunity to see Jim's 500 in person I just fell in love with the car even more. It's a really awesome little car with plenty of room for my 6'2" frame. If they're bringing over the Abarth SS version, Fiat will have a definite sale from me. And if they can pull off getting the diesel version here I know my Dad and my Uncle will definitly be in line to get temselves one...especially since gas prices will be spiking up again soon. That's 3 sales right there
And hopefully if this little article is true, we'll have them here by next year http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/22/report-fiat-500-may-come-to-u-s-for-2010-sorry-canada/ Just in time too since I'm looking to sell my car within the year and waiting to see what the rest of the Car Show Season reveals. But if they can get the car here by next year, I can definitly hold out....since I haven't seen anything sold over here that I absolutely must ownYep – Cerberus, who "own" Chrysler now only have about 45% of the company. I don't see them wanting to reduce that further.
