Once the motor got VVT, it was no longer regarded as "a safe engine"
Every 500, and an awful lot of Panda and Punto owners no longer have that peace of mind
General Cam belt change price
- Thread starter l0586
- Start date
Currently reading:
General Cam belt change price
Once the motor got VVT, it was no longer regarded as "a safe engine"
Every 500, and an awful lot of Panda and Punto owners no longer have that peace of mind
As jrk says above, 69hp engine is interference (69hp has the VVT cam pulley and solenoid valve near the oil filler cap). I tend to smile slightly when people say not to worry because their engine is non interference. Ok, I suppose such engines won't destroy themselves if the belt breaks or jumps a number of teeth, However, surest thing in the world is that it'll "go" at the most inconvenient time or in the worst possible location - Fast lane on the motorway or when crossing a tramway or when taking significant other half for her hair appointment etc etc. Better to just renew when specified.
I have to agree that I'm not much into really basic code readers - the type where you just get a number and then have to look up a reference to find out what it is. However, for the absolute beginner they definitely have a role and even better if they list definitions (as many do). When you start looking at more sophisticated gear it's only of use if you have the knowledge to interpret the result. I'd say that now, I'm somewhere in the middle of ability range. for instance I like to always do a whole vehicle scan before starting a service and I find being able to graph sensor outputs and drive actuators very useful when fault finding. However, if I didn't know what long and short term fuel trims mean, what an oxygen sensor trace should look like and that pre and post cat sensors will have a very different waveform or a crankshaft position sensor output or alternator waveform and many others then graphing would be a waste of time. Remember also that fault codes are only an indicator of the area in which the fault lies. Just because it says "camshaft sensor output implausible" doesn't mean it needs a new sensor. Almost more likely it's got a poor plug connection, broken wire or something else. It does however trigger you to check out the circuitry for the system identified. As Rainman Ray would say, "Don't just fire the parts cannon". For some time now I've been trying to understand battery coding using my VCDS and haven't yet "got" it (it frightens me because I don't understand it.)
When was the VVT engine fitted to the Panda? This car is a 2013, I'll check for a solenoid tomorrow, really hope that it's not and what I've previously been told is correct. I agree with what you say about a belt going at an inconvenient time etc but the car isn't mine, it's my wife's, she doesn't want to buy all the parts and give me the hassle of doing the job. I just hope that say the water pump bearing/seal starts to leak coolant first for example, rather the belt snap and leave her stranded,....that's all I can hope for really. Being told that the pistons and valves wouldn't hit gave me some comfort.
Personally I'll not own another vehicle with a cam belt period, I think that a cam chain is a much better option period, for many reasons, I don't miss having to change the one on the Alfa that I use to own. That car didn't even throw up a warning light on the dash when the lambda sensor went west, I just got terrible MPG and the tail pipe were jet black, I took a punt and replaced it, engine returned to normal. Just goes to prove, that you can't always rely on any of this electronic, software, diagnostic crap indeed.
Mid 2010 on the Mk3 1.2 Panda
All Mk4 1.2 Pandas have the VVT engine
On a 2013 1.2 Panda, the pistons will hit the valves if the cambelt breaks. This will likely destroy the engine and at 11 years old, you might as well then just scrap the car.
Fortunately there have been very, very few reports here of cambelts breaking.
Last edited:
@earthman, jrk is right, a 2013 1.2 has to be VVT and therefore interference - unless something very strange has been done like an earlier engine swop, not likely though.
I think a waterpump bearing failure would be the most likely thing, which could then throw the belt off if it wasn't attended to.
I'd much MUCH rather have a belt than a chain. Chains aren't universally reliable, I can think of 3 makes which are well known to give trouble at quite low mileages, and much more expensive to renew. Only ones I'd consider would be Honda and Mazda who do seem to have a reputation for longevity if a really good quality oil is used and changed regularly - I recently read an article stating that oil manufacturers are starting to produce engine specific oils for chain cam engines in a bid to increase chain life. By the way, although I prefer belts I'd be very reluctant indeed to consider a "wet belt" as used in certain Ford and Peugeot engines, Oh no siree Bob!
Your statement about taking a punt and replacing that O2 (lambda) sensor? If bad enough to blacken the tailpipe and give you "terrible" MPG then there would pretty much definitely be a fault code/codes posted for you to retrieve. I don't understand why you then slag off the diagnostic/electronic angle which could only serve to substantiate your findings and confirm you needed the sensor or not and possibly save you spending money you don't need to spend?
I think a waterpump bearing failure would be the most likely thing, which could then throw the belt off if it wasn't attended to.
I'd much MUCH rather have a belt than a chain. Chains aren't universally reliable, I can think of 3 makes which are well known to give trouble at quite low mileages, and much more expensive to renew. Only ones I'd consider would be Honda and Mazda who do seem to have a reputation for longevity if a really good quality oil is used and changed regularly - I recently read an article stating that oil manufacturers are starting to produce engine specific oils for chain cam engines in a bid to increase chain life. By the way, although I prefer belts I'd be very reluctant indeed to consider a "wet belt" as used in certain Ford and Peugeot engines, Oh no siree Bob!
Your statement about taking a punt and replacing that O2 (lambda) sensor? If bad enough to blacken the tailpipe and give you "terrible" MPG then there would pretty much definitely be a fault code/codes posted for you to retrieve. I don't understand why you then slag off the diagnostic/electronic angle which could only serve to substantiate your findings and confirm you needed the sensor or not and possibly save you spending money you don't need to spend?
I'd much rather have neither.
Please sir, can I have a pushrod engine with a gear driven camshaft?
Or just go two stroke, no camshaft
I was thinking more of the water pump seal starting to drip/leak, providing one with a bit of warning shall we say rather that the bearing just failing, resulting in the belt snapping.
The whole rubber toothed belt idea being responsible for keeping the internals of an engine working seems like a weak/flawed design from the get go to me so I'm surprised that you prefer it over a chain to be honest. OK, decades ago chains were not so great but now we have multiple links, tougher steel etc,....the fact that Honda ditched all cam belts in all of their car engines a few years ago now speaks volumes to me.
I'm a bit of a dinosaur I know but like with all this plastic push fit plumbing for example, I'd rather have copper pipes any day, it's just a better material, more suited to the task, withstands pressure and lasts far longer,.....using a rubber toothed belt is just inferior, isn't that obvious to all??
ANY item that needs software to run screws up at some point, some on a regular basis, that's what I don't like about all this computer/diagnostic crap, my point about Alfa's own warning light/software being a prime example. I don't see the point in wasting any money on a basic code reader, I'd rather put that money towards a unit that can also delete the error, activate the ABS pump, rewind the parking brake, and EVERYTHING else that I may have to do to the vehicle whilst I own it,....I gave up trying to find such a unit that could do both cars. My local MOT garage had a Snapon unit which cost 20K, that couldn't even reset the service light on the previous model of Panda that my wife had for example,.....I certainly don't have that kind of money to spend.
Many thanks for that,....oh bugger, will try to convince the wife to buy the parts.
I hear you, I'm with you, I'd rather have an engine that's solid, less likely to self destruct rather than pushing out lots of BHP.
To get the last gram of CO2 reduction, chains in modern engines are very small and weak. Replacing them (ask a Mercedes owner) will cost you an arm and a leg.
I really prefer a belt.
gr J
I really prefer a belt.
gr J
From what I read I gather that Merc engine is actually a joint venture between them and Renault (one of the engine options is anyway) and that engine used across the Renault/Dacia/Nissan range seems, from stuff I've read, to be well known for chain failure. I think some sort of mass legal action was being considered in France regarding the old 1.2 engine chain failures? I guess the Merc version would involve a much higher labour rate for sorting? I've seen a few timing chains of late - don't know what engines they came from - lying around on workbenches in the wee garages where friends work and noticed they look quite different to the old chains I worked with. They look like a collection of teeth rather than rollers?
Absolutely. The recent problems with my hip, and the upcoming replacement op a week next Wednesday, together with my advancing age and the reduction in realistic aspiration regarding working on vehicles and the fact that Becky (2010 1.2 Panda dynamic eco) is also aging and needing serious repairs now - rear axle will have to be done this year - Have all conspired to force me to think seriously about a reliable second car for Mrs J.
She really doesn't want to drive my new Scala, says it's too big for her scooting around the town to visit her friends and supermarket car parks - she's probably right (and she's terrible for kerbing wheels) So I'm half heartedly looking around for something suitable. It's going to be difficult for me to get past another Panda so we may well end up with another 1.2 Panda. I'm too frightened to consider a twin air or one of the new 3 cylinder jobbies. There's only one other that seriously intrigues me, the Suzuki Ignis. The base version seems pretty cheap used, has steel wheels and very little "unnecessary" electronics. Also it has a very interesting fuel injection system in that it's actually port injected! Hurrah! and normally aspirated. It seems to get very favourable reviews with the worst criticisms being slightly vague steering and rear suspension can be a little "joggly" on rough roads. One problem that'll need to be assessed is that, on the base version, the driver's seat has no vertical adjustment which might be a problem for the diminutive Mrs J. I think a visit to the local Suzuki garage will be our next step to try one on for size and get a road test if possible. My daughter ran a Swift for years and it was very reliable until suddenly, in it's old age, it all seemed to go wrong at once. I left me with a very good impression of the brand.
It would be interesting to know how many chains VS belts snap per year, my guess would be belts are higher, partly due to them being the inferior material for the task and the fact that a lot of drivers wouldn't have a clue that such an important item that's hidden inside the engine needs to be replaced regularly anyhow.
I don't have faith in any modern vehilce now, and when I say modern, I guess that I'm talking something that were designed and built ten years ago now, so yes even cam chains of this era can be dubious, any two or 3 cylinder small CC engine for example, there's much evidence of failures, some small car dealers won't touch certain makes and models at auction for good reason.
I can't see myself buying anything newer even if I had the money, if anything I'll be going backwards, pre 1995 or a classic 80's car, if I could find a rust free example, no MOT or road tax to pay for would be a bonus. Not being able to work on a vehicle, be self sufficient due to age/health issues is a concern, a bridge that we will all have to cross at some point I guess.
I'm totally with you on that, some years ago I fabricated/welded some thick steel plate to form kind of a box that I placed around the sump on a van, two sides of the box sat againt the sump bolt heads so that area actually took the weight when I jacked it up. Out of interest, what other way to support from underneath?
You can have both, engines in the early 90's were a good balance of powerful and had long term reliability
Yes, you are so right there, that's my experience too, back then my 2L hot hatch had 150BHP, was fairly easy to work on and reliable. Yes, youngsters today will laugh at that figure no doubt, when hot hatches are producing double that BHP but in all honesty, who needs such high output for the public roads?
Can you give us an idea on what these other ways are please? Before I start to design/weld up a box to go around the sump.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2017
- Messages
- 977
- Points
- 315
If I understand correctly, you want to lift the car via the engine (effectively)? Personally I'm not sure I would want to load up my engine mounts in tension like that - not a load path I would expect them to have been designed for??Can you give us an idea on what these other ways are please? Before I start to design/weld up a box to go around the sump.
Maybe I have the wrong end of a stick??