Biodiesel (waste veg oil)

[greenmachine]

Hi, ive got a Multipla 1.9 JTD and have been running it on 100% biodiesel for about six months now with no prolems.

anybody using Biodiesel (processed waste veg oil)? or had any problems/issues with it?

cheers chris

 

[Shadeyman]

Hi, ive got a Multipla 1.9 JTD and have been running it on 100% biodiesel for about six months now with no prolems.

anybody using Biodiesel (processed waste veg oil)? or had any problems/issues with it?

cheers chris

I've been using Biodiesel for a month now, no problems at all, in fact everything seems a little better. The engine is quieter, next to no smoke from the rear when accerlerating hard and I'm saving about £20 on evey tank full. I must add that the Biodiesel I use is not made from used oil its made from new/unused oil.

I'm really pleased with the results but I'm sure there will be the usual comments posted soon.

"my mates car blew up because of Biodiesel"
"my car sprung 10,000 leaks because of Biodiesel"
"GOD hates Biodiesel"

 

[greenmachine]

I've been using Biodiesel for a month now, no problems at all, in fact everything seems a little better. The engine is quieter, next to no smoke from the rear when accerlerating hard and I'm saving about £20 on evey tank full. I must add that the Biodiesel I use is not made from used oil its made from new/unused oil.

Mine is also running quieter/smoother & cleaner.

if your processing the oil it makes no difference if its new or used (just have to do a titration test and add appropriate amount of sodium/potassium)

i get my used oil for free from a few local take-aways and and final cost is about 20p a litre.

Glad to here somebody else is running ok on it.

cheers chris

 

[Shadeyman]

I pay 73p a litre, its worth every penny.

As your using used oil it will have some residual water content. How do you get on with filtering the soap out of the mix?

 

[greenmachine]

I pay 73p a litre, its worth every penny.

As your using used oil it will have some residual water content. How do you get on with filtering the soap out of the mix?

heres the short version.

1, heat oil to 60'-65' and it is sprayed back on its self via a "shower head" water evaporates off
2, let it settle and do titration test to work out how much potssium hydroxide to use per litre
3, mix potassium and methanol (200ml per L)
4, mix step 3 with oil and pump it round for an hour (just to encourage the reaction)
5, let it settle and drain of the gylcerine.
6, wash with water (fine spray)-(to remove any remaining gylcerine and methoxide{step 3}
7, heat to 60' and it is sprayed back on its self via a "shower head" water evaporates off.
8, when it looks crystal clear filter to 5 micron.
9, back up and fill up

if you need detailed info let me know

Cheers Chris

 

[Shadeyman]

heres the short version.

1, heat oil to 60'-65' and it is sprayed back on its self via a "shower head" water evaporates off
2, let it settle and do titration test to work out how much potssium hydroxide to use per litre
3, mix potassium and methanol (200ml per L)
4, mix step 3 with oil and pump it round for an hour (just to encourage the reaction)
5, let it settle and drain of the gylcerine.
6, wash with water (fine spray)-(to remove any remaining gylcerine and methoxide{step 3}
7, heat to 60' and it is sprayed back on its self via a "shower head" water evaporates off.
8, when it looks crystal clear filter to 5 micron.
9, back up and fill up

if you need detailed info let me know

Cheers Chris

You make it sound easy, is it?
What would it cost to setup?

 

[greenmachine]

You make it sound easy, is it?
What would it cost to setup?

it is really easy and my machine can do 100-140L IN 8-9 hours if im in a rush but normally spred it over a few days.

i built my machine for about £600, you can buy them off fleabay but with anything you get what you pay for.

and before anybody mentions paying Duty to the Tax man, we all allowed to produce 2500L per 12 months period without paying duty (just need to keep simple records for 6 years)

cheers chris

 

[Shadeyman]

and before anybody mentions paying Duty to the Tax man, we all allowed to produce 2500L per 12 months period without paying duty (just need to keep simple records for 6 years)

cheers chris

By law you do have to register and tell them that your producing it.

I'm sure you have to keep records and receipts of chemicals purchased. So you can prove the amount you produce.

More info here:
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...nt&id=HMCE_PROD1_024771&propertyType=document



Edit

i get my used oil for free from a few local take-aways and and final cost is about 20p a litre.

4.2 When is excise duty payable on biofuels?

The excise duty point for biofuels is the time when they are:

• sent out from entered premises
• set aside, or
• used as a motor fuel.

'Set aside' means the point at which it is decided that the product is going to be used as a motor fuel. This decision means that the fuel has been set aside for a chargeable use.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...cument&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000205#P229_25599

I've read throught it a few times and it is a bit confusing but as far as I can tell you can produce less than 2500 litres a year tax free. But you have to pay if its used as a road fuel.
So you can expect your 20p a litre to atleast trebble once your paying duty on the road fuel you produce. Its a prison sentence if you don't.

 

[greenmachine]

from HMRC website:

"Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information."

i have already been in touch with them when i have reciecved a letter in reply informing me i only need to keep records of amounts produced and retain them for 6 years.

 

[Shadeyman]

from HMRC website:

"Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information."

i have already been in touch with them when i have reciecved a letter in reply informing me i only need to keep records of amounts produced and retain them for 6 years.

I just called them and this is what they pointed me to.

Can I use vegetable oil in my car if I mix it with normal diesel?

You can use vegetable oil in your car and mix it with diesel (vegetable oil is generally used as a substitute for diesel) but you will have to make arrangements to pay the Excise Duty to HMRC. See question 'How do I notify Revenue & Customs that I am using cooking oil in my vehicle?'.

Important Note: It is illegal to run your car on any fuel substitute without having first paid us the duty.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...E_PROD1_024771&propertyType=document#P13_1512

 

[Stu DemonD]

But under 2,500 litres is an exempt producer (and that was confirmed as part of the new regs from 1st April 2010 onwards).

4.2.1 Exempt producers/users


If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

• any biofuel, or
• any other fuel substitute or additive

within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.
Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.

 

[Shadeyman]

Exempt producer, yes for a boat, heating your home or for an off road vehicle. But duty has to be paid if its used as a road fuel.

I've read that about 10 times, still wasn't sure so I called my local tax office. They then told me it was a VAT enquiry and I should call

0845 010 9000

So I did. The lady told me VAT had to be paid on ALL road fuels and pointed me to their website. There's a reduced rate for Biofuels.

 

[greenmachine]

http://www.fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/

i will recheck and pay duty if needed as its still way cheaper. the link is for a company that makes them if anybody is intrested.

cheers.

 

[Shadeyman]

http://www.fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/

i will recheck and pay duty if needed as its still way cheaper. the link is for a company that makes them if anybody is intrested.

cheers.

Yeh I'm interested thats why I looked into the VAT thing.
Thanks for the link.

 

[Stu DemonD]

CONFIRMED! Duty has to be paid on Biodiesel.
Eventually received the email from HMRC with the link to the amendment.
.

Ok, so look at the very notice you linked to, and it says:

What if I produce less than 2,500 litres per annum and am classified as an exempt producer?

The provisions relating to small producers are not affected <---which implies the exemption still exists.

By the way, great editing...

 

[greenmachine]

fenland biodiesel processors run free training sessions and inform all buyers that it tax free aswel.

 

[Shadeyman]

By the way, great editing...

My editing is crap ...

I spoke to a woman on the Advice number my local tax office gave me and she said as of April this year duty has to be paid on all road fuels. She said she'd email me the relevent details as soon as she found them. I read the same bit as you and decided to delete my comment, you were obviously a bit too quick for me.

I tried phoning back but the lines are closed till tomorrow.

Their web site is a pain in the *** to find any info so I can't confirm what the woman told me.

I hope there is no duty as I'd like to try my hand at producing my own fuel.

 

[greenmachine]

sorry to harp on about this!

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P22_1468
4.2.1 Exempt producers/users
If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

• any biofuel, or
• any other fuel substitute or additive

within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.
Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.
4.9.1 Exempt producers’ records
If you are an exempt producer (as defined in paragraph 4.2.1) you only need to record and keep the following information:

• the date of each supply and/or own use
• the amount in standard litres of each supply or own use.

You should check the amounts produced at the end of each month. If you have produced 2,500 litres or more in the last 12 months, or expect to produce 2,500 litres or more in the next 12 months, you must contact us within 30 days to register your premises as described in paragraph 2.5.

the way i read it were all still exempt upto 2500L - am i wrong??

 

[Stu DemonD]

the way i read it were all still exempt upto 2500L - am i wrong??

No, that is the way I see it as well.

Don't always believe what someone says at the end of a Revenue helpline, they aren't always right. I should know, I speak to HMR&C enough

 

[Shadeyman]

Ok, so look at the very notice you linked to, and it says:

What if I produce less than 2,500 litres per annum and am classified as an exempt producer?

The provisions relating to small producers are not affected <---which implies the exemption still exists.

By the way, great editing...

This is the link in the email and is as close as I can get to an answer.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief1810.htm

VAT free I hope.