OP
OP
Nice pic, thanks! You're not wrong about the weather, although it got a lot better later on.
John
John
General Big Fiat
- Thread starter nitrane.co.uk
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General Big Fiat
In the past when I've been to 3S the weather was too hot. 
Bigger version of the pic now in my gallery (was getting fast CGI errors before trying to upload).
Bigger version of the pic now in my gallery (was getting fast CGI errors before trying to upload).
OP
OP
The in-car footage from 3 Sisters is now up on the website (www.nitrane.co.uk).
The regs have arrived for Olivers Mount Scarborough next weekend. I'm car 17 and Paul Maxwell is 18 in his 1242 cinq. It'll be interesting to compare the two back to back.
Cheers, John
The regs have arrived for Olivers Mount Scarborough next weekend. I'm car 17 and Paul Maxwell is 18 in his 1242 cinq. It'll be interesting to compare the two back to back.
Cheers, John
OP
OP
Hi,
Just back from the 3-day hillclimb weekend at Olivers Mount, Scarborough. The weather was miraculously warm & dry for all 3 days which made for good times. I quickly got under the times set last year and set about getting under 56secs which I managed on my last run (56.69). The car never missed a beat and yet again the gearbox was fantastic. Paul Maxwell got his 1242 cinq (stripped out and running sticky tyres) in the mid 58s on his first event. Took loads of pics and video which will follow shortly. Here's a few from the event photographer...
Cheers, John
Just back from the 3-day hillclimb weekend at Olivers Mount, Scarborough. The weather was miraculously warm & dry for all 3 days which made for good times. I quickly got under the times set last year and set about getting under 56secs which I managed on my last run (56.69). The car never missed a beat and yet again the gearbox was fantastic. Paul Maxwell got his 1242 cinq (stripped out and running sticky tyres) in the mid 58s on his first event. Took loads of pics and video which will follow shortly. Here's a few from the event photographer...
Cheers, John
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OP
OP
I've got the videos up on the website now, there's also incar footage of Paul's 1242 cinq, an old Cooper S, and the class winning 205. All makes interesting comparison, and its obvious what I need next...
Cheers, John
Cheers, John
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looks perfect, must also drive great
whats that black piece of metal in the middle of front bumper????
whats that black piece of metal in the middle of front bumper????
OP
OP
Its a timing strut - its cuts the optical beam at the start and finish to give an accurate time to a 1/100th second.
Cheers, John
I've got the videos up on the website now, there's also incar footage of Paul's 1242 cinq, an old Cooper S, and the class winning 205. All makes interesting comparison, and its obvious what I need next...
Cheers, John
I have just read this thread from start to finish and watched a load of videos on your website. I have to say I am properly impressed with the whole lot. The car is sweet as a nut, I absolutely love the wheels its really looks and goes really well.
You are insiring me to get another Cinq. My favourite video is the external cam shot going round Teeside. You can see the wheels moving as well as you making steering wheel adjustments, top class. :worship:
PS what improvements do you need as I could not tell.
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I'll have a guess.......suspension based on pics, especially front head on, can see inside wheel lifting reducing contact patch and even with a tricky diff, you can't get power down if tyre not fully on road.
OP
OP
Now then Aaron, long time no speak. Hmmm, actually a serious increase in power is needed. I'm not too worried about the suspension. I'm already running 250lbin springs and don't want to go any harder. The trick with speed events is to run as soft as you can to maximise grip - although I appreciate what you say about the body roll. Interesting that a lot of pics of the works and trofeo cars show a lot of roll, i guess it goes with the territory.
With regard to power, there are options. These involve firstly getting the top end breathing better (TBs or carbs), and then getting more cubes (stroking/boring). That will have to wait though, i've spent enough on it for now.
Thanks for the comments cinqster. I'm lucky to have a friendly scrutineer who's happy with the external camera mounts. Its amazing what you learn as a driver by looking back at the footage.
Cheers, John
With regard to power, there are options. These involve firstly getting the top end breathing better (TBs or carbs), and then getting more cubes (stroking/boring). That will have to wait though, i've spent enough on it for now.
Thanks for the comments cinqster. I'm lucky to have a friendly scrutineer who's happy with the external camera mounts. Its amazing what you learn as a driver by looking back at the footage.
Cheers, John
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Yeah it does seem to be a trait of Cento that they look from the outside have a huge amount of lean on them, I remember watching back a video of Jamie and I going round Castle Combe in his old turbo Cinq and it looked like it was going to fall over, though it did have road based uprated suspension not full on track stuff.
Though yeah you are correct in that you do need suspension movement to make the suspension work, which is often overlooked by many who think stiff is better.
TB's would be a nice addition, and I have seen an Italian inlet manifold before for fitting twin webbers. You can get a few more CC's from it from just overboring to the last rebuild bore stage. IIRC on Emma's Cinq Turbo her Dad used the Mahle .6 pistons (the pistons range from standard size, then + .2 +.4 +.6 to accomodate each rebore rebuild though don't quote me on exact numbers as only using that as a guide) which gave something like 1130cc, not a huge increase but keeps it to standard pistons rather than gettting some made up, so cheaper. The Mahle pistons are also stronger than the Fiat ones, much thicker crown thickness, yet I think lighter than Fiats due to superior materials.
The problem you have going much bigger is the thickness of the cylinder wall, its not very thick hence why Fiat when going bigger made taller block and strocked it instead this help long term durability. Though as the car is used on shorter sprints you could run things closer to the wire.
I am sure though through your continual research and development you will come up with some good solutions.
Aaron.
Though yeah you are correct in that you do need suspension movement to make the suspension work, which is often overlooked by many who think stiff is better.
TB's would be a nice addition, and I have seen an Italian inlet manifold before for fitting twin webbers. You can get a few more CC's from it from just overboring to the last rebuild bore stage. IIRC on Emma's Cinq Turbo her Dad used the Mahle .6 pistons (the pistons range from standard size, then + .2 +.4 +.6 to accomodate each rebore rebuild though don't quote me on exact numbers as only using that as a guide) which gave something like 1130cc, not a huge increase but keeps it to standard pistons rather than gettting some made up, so cheaper. The Mahle pistons are also stronger than the Fiat ones, much thicker crown thickness, yet I think lighter than Fiats due to superior materials.
The problem you have going much bigger is the thickness of the cylinder wall, its not very thick hence why Fiat when going bigger made taller block and strocked it instead this help long term durability. Though as the car is used on shorter sprints you could run things closer to the wire.
I am sure though through your continual research and development you will come up with some good solutions.
Aaron.
OP
OP
Thanks Aaron once again for sharing your knowledge. I think ultimately the 1242 crank will be the way to go.
Cheers, John
Cheers, John
I don't know what the constraints of your class are.
Going on from Aaron's suggestion, it might be possible to take the bore out to 1242 dimensions (at max OS 70.79) for a wee bit more. I'd check the thickness of the "liner" though!
I'm not sure that using a 1242 crank is viable: the big end and main bearings are a different size to the 1108. The entire 1242 bottom end, for sure.
I wonder if the 1108 could take a 16 valve head?
I wonder if you could soften up the springs (and stiffen up the damping) and use blade type ARBs -- in effect, they act both as ARBs and as auxiliary springs, hence you could soften the spring rate.
Going on from Aaron's suggestion, it might be possible to take the bore out to 1242 dimensions (at max OS 70.79) for a wee bit more. I'd check the thickness of the "liner" though!
I'm not sure that using a 1242 crank is viable: the big end and main bearings are a different size to the 1108. The entire 1242 bottom end, for sure.
I wonder if the 1108 could take a 16 valve head?
I wonder if you could soften up the springs (and stiffen up the damping) and use blade type ARBs -- in effect, they act both as ARBs and as auxiliary springs, hence you could soften the spring rate.
OP
OP
Some interesting thoughts there, thanks... there is some debate as to whether the 1242 is allowed in the class as it wasn't fitted as std to the car. Problem is these things are only ever challenged if you start winning and breaking records, by which time you may have spent a lot of cash on something that is then obsolete.
I understood the 1242 crank big ends were different but the mains weren't, hence the thought of dropping it into a 1108 with bespoke rods. I haven't checked the detail of this so stand to be corrected.
On the suspension front, it feels just right to drive, in fact I briefly drove Paul's 1242 cinq with the same AVO dampers but 160lbin springs and it felt way too soft on the track. Probably the biggest issue is tyres - I have to run MSA list 1A, which for 13" means A539s as there isn't really anything else around. Running 1B trackday specials would be a lot better but sadly isn't allowed.
Fundamentally i'm going to enjoy it as it is for a while, i can't keep spending money on it. Unless of course someone wants to buy a 100bhp MPi 1108 engine...
Cheers, John
ps tell me more about blade arbs
I understood the 1242 crank big ends were different but the mains weren't, hence the thought of dropping it into a 1108 with bespoke rods. I haven't checked the detail of this so stand to be corrected.
On the suspension front, it feels just right to drive, in fact I briefly drove Paul's 1242 cinq with the same AVO dampers but 160lbin springs and it felt way too soft on the track. Probably the biggest issue is tyres - I have to run MSA list 1A, which for 13" means A539s as there isn't really anything else around. Running 1B trackday specials would be a lot better but sadly isn't allowed.
Fundamentally i'm going to enjoy it as it is for a while, i can't keep spending money on it. Unless of course someone wants to buy a 100bhp MPi 1108 engine...
Cheers, John
ps tell me more about blade arbs
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Thing is in your class which is upto 1400cc IIRC then if you could change an engine it would be better going 1368cc 16V than the 1242cc 8/16V options as this in even untuned state is near 100bhp 100lb ft. It standas to reason if you can change to a bigger engine why not go the biggest and most powerful standard available as they all bolt in with not major hassle and offer very little in way of weight penalties. The 1368 is also limited at 7000rpm form standard in Panda 100hp etc, whereas the 1242 engine s seem to be limited to 6500rpm, though I coudl be wrong on that the 16V's may also be 7000 but earlier 8V's were 6500.
Then as the 6 speed gearbox that goes with it is pretty much the same as the 5 speed boxs would be good to use your tick LSD on it and have more ratios as the 6 speed box on your 13" wheels would keep car in power band as ratios closer together.
But as you say if you did this and started beating everyone would they object.
There is also a 1368 8V option, but not seen any of these about.
Then as the 6 speed gearbox that goes with it is pretty much the same as the 5 speed boxs would be good to use your tick LSD on it and have more ratios as the 6 speed box on your 13" wheels would keep car in power band as ratios closer together.
But as you say if you did this and started beating everyone would they object.
There is also a 1368 8V option, but not seen any of these about.
One on eBay now. I've seen one in the flesh, but the scrappy wouldn't sell it to me!
1368 16v puts out about 110 more or less straight from the crate with bigger TB and decent exhaust and mani (makes a super road car, as in Emma's Sei) but said to be difficult to tune (hard to port, hydraulic lifters, etc), 8v is a stump puller, but should be easier to tune.
1242 engines (at least the pre SuperFIRE) have 42mm big ends and 48mm mains -- both nominally 4mm up from the 1108, but, then, what's a lathe for?
The 1.3 diesel is said to be FIRE based, but I've not seen the dimensions. You'd expect the bottom end to be much tougher...........
Something on blade type ARBs when I get back from the post office..........
1242 engines (at least the pre SuperFIRE) have 42mm big ends and 48mm mains -- both nominally 4mm up from the 1108, but, then, what's a lathe for?
A lathe is not for machining big ends
unless you have a funky chuck on the tailstockMains are possible, i still wouldn't like to machine them tho. would need a parting off shaped tool to do it and they vibrate like mad, and with the crank not having a solid centre running from end to end, i doubt you'd be able to put much force onto it to stop it vibrating.
And they would need to be ground down to proper size and finish so you might aswell let an engine shop grind it all
All true. But it's a lot of stock to come off by grinding...........
Any road up, onto the blade type ARBs.
The idea is said to be down to Mark Donahoe, he of Camaro fame, who was by all accounts a pretty damn good engineer.
Imagine an ordinary ARB. To stiffen it you'd just bung in a thicker one, and so on. But if the section is ground to a blade, you can achieve soft to hard simply by rotating the blade. If you can introduce a mechanism or a motor, you can have in car adjustability.
I'm sure some of the single seaters in the paddock will have them (maybe even that funky old type cinq mod saloon), but some pics: this one shows the mechanism pretty well while this shows the Alfaholics one.
Any road up, onto the blade type ARBs.
The idea is said to be down to Mark Donahoe, he of Camaro fame, who was by all accounts a pretty damn good engineer.
Imagine an ordinary ARB. To stiffen it you'd just bung in a thicker one, and so on. But if the section is ground to a blade, you can achieve soft to hard simply by rotating the blade. If you can introduce a mechanism or a motor, you can have in car adjustability.
I'm sure some of the single seaters in the paddock will have them (maybe even that funky old type cinq mod saloon), but some pics: this one shows the mechanism pretty well while this shows the Alfaholics one.
OP
OP
You guys are great, cheers! :worship:
Quickly on the engine (some of you will recall my MSA frustrations on this one) the regs specify the engine and 'head must be the same 'type' as fitted to the standard car. I argued that this could include the 1242 as in all respects its the same 'type', just a bit bigger, and is similar in principle to boring out say a Mini to 1380. The disagreed. So...
An 1108 block it is. If the 1242 crank stats are true, then taking 4mm off the mains is well within the capaibility of my engine builder. As we had always anticipated bespoke rods then the larger big-ends aren't a problem. I've no idea what all this does to capacity, but if gets me to around 1300cc then i'll be happy. With a TB or bike carb set up I should be getting 130bhp which will be more like it.
One to ponder, research and continue to take advice on me thinks.
Cheers, John
:bang: (i only put this symbol in because my 6-year old said she liked it, but actually it is pretty reminiscent of FIRE tuning!!!!
Quickly on the engine (some of you will recall my MSA frustrations on this one) the regs specify the engine and 'head must be the same 'type' as fitted to the standard car. I argued that this could include the 1242 as in all respects its the same 'type', just a bit bigger, and is similar in principle to boring out say a Mini to 1380. The disagreed. So...
An 1108 block it is. If the 1242 crank stats are true, then taking 4mm off the mains is well within the capaibility of my engine builder. As we had always anticipated bespoke rods then the larger big-ends aren't a problem. I've no idea what all this does to capacity, but if gets me to around 1300cc then i'll be happy. With a TB or bike carb set up I should be getting 130bhp which will be more like it.
One to ponder, research and continue to take advice on me thinks.
Cheers, John
:bang: (i only put this symbol in because my 6-year old said she liked it, but actually it is pretty reminiscent of FIRE tuning!!!!
