General Battery

[Night35]

The car went in for a new starter motor.

Now got it back. The clock goes to zero when turning the engine on. Mileage counter I use to check for how much per tank goes to zero.

Read my battery needs replaced. At £80-£100 I want to be sure before putting the money out

Thoughts?

 

[koalar]

The volts are dropping below the level where the body computer memory can no longer keep its memory alive


The odds are on the battery as its a common failure mode


But its always best to test the battery before changing especially as other electrical work has been carried out.


Why was the starter changed ? There usually good for over 200K miles

Normally I buy S/H tested battery for £15 but last time I bought new for £35
ECP with there discount code about a year and a half ago.

 

[Night35]

The motor was changed as sreacking like. Garage said it was falling apart and I was any day going to turn the key for nothing.

 

[varesecrazy]

The motor was changed as sreacking like. Garage said it was falling apart and I was any day going to turn the key for nothing.

Screeching is usually a sign of poor power delivery to the starter...

Could be the battery.. could be the connection

Simplest tests here:

Check voltage of YOUR battery 12+volts

Borrow a battery.. 10 minute test
if it starts
You have a poor battery


Odd how it didnt do this before the starter was swapped...

Did the power steering ever play.up ?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hopefully the garage changed the starter because it was indeed "done" - They seem to have reported to you that there were obvious physical signs of this, quite probably armature bushing wear and brush/commutator segments worn?

Anyway, with the new one fitted it may actually be demanding more current than the old one due to a better circuit being achieved via the new brushes/commutator and, perhaps, slight resistance to spin up due to tightness of new armature bushes/bearings? and so you had those symptoms. As people above are saying, do a proper voltage on load test of the battery (volt meter across the battery posts - 12+ volts. Start engine - 13.5 to 14.0 Volts. Then, with engine off, turn headlights on, maybe rear screen heater too and operate the starter. It should spin the engine rapidly and you shouldn't see any great voltage drop at the meter. ie, maybe no less than 11 volts but more is better.

It's important to have the volt meter (multimeter) probes on the actual battery posts to eliminate the possibility of poor connections at the battery terminals whilst you are doing this.

It's not unusual to find a poor battery highlighted by the fitting of a new starter. Our boss always insisted, and it was a policy I carried with me when I became a workshop foreman myself, that a proper battery load test was always done when fitting a new starter. Of course this was good business practice too as we sold batteries! But good for customers too because neither they nor we wanted them coming back with the starting problems we had just been trying to fix for them.

Of course you may need to consider poor cable connections - and the earth cable connection to the chassis on the inner wing (under the battery) is a known weakness as is that earth lead itself which is known to corrode internally. However the battery itself is the obvious place to start.

By the way, I'm suggesting turning the lights and rear screen heater on to place load on the electrical system (these place a high current demand on the battery) so when you operate the starter (which really "hits" the battery) any weakness or inability to deliver will be obvious. However, many modern cars now cut out other circuits when you operate the starter (so it gets maximum available Ooph) so sometimes switching on these ancillaries doesn't have the desired effect - doesn't harm to try it though. In the "old days" before they had these isolating protocols, a good, but very rough, check of battery condition was to stop the car nose on to a wall or other vertical surface and turn the ignition off, turn the headlights and rear screen heater, if you had one, on and try to start the engine. If the headlights dimmed sygnificantly or actually went out, you probably needed a new battery! Now a days, the "clever" darned isolating protocols will turn the lights off anyway so this simple way of testing is now impossible. A great shame as it worked very well.

 

[koalar]

Screeching is usually a sign of poor power delivery to the starter...

Could be the battery.. could be the connection

Simplest tests here:

Check voltage of YOUR battery 12+volts

Borrow a battery.. 10 minute test
if it starts
You have a poor battery


Odd how it didnt do this before the starter was swapped...

Did the power steering ever play.up ?

Correct




Hand held digital battery testers are rubbish


You need to put a load of half the cold cranking capacity for 15 seconds and the volts shouldn't drop below 9.5 volts


MultiEcuScan is pretty good at this. If you data log the voltage while cranking. From memory my faulty battery was dropping to 8.5V and resetting the clock and a Good battery was staying above 10V before the engine starts.



A better test although more of a faf would be to remove the fuel pump fuse and measure the battery volts while cranking for 15 seconds. Shouldn't drop below 9.5V



But for the few minuets it takes a substation battery is just as easy

 

[koalar]

Hopefully the garage changed the starter because it was indeed "done" - They seem to have reported to you that there were obvious physical signs of this, quite probably armature bushing wear and brush/commutator segments worn?

Anyway, with the new one fitted it may actually be demanding more current than the old one due to a better circuit being achieved via the new brushes/commutator and, perhaps, slight resistance to spin up due to tightness of new armature bushes/bearings? and so you had those symptoms. As people above are saying, do a proper voltage on load test of the battery (volt meter across the battery posts - 12+ volts. Start engine - 13.5 to 14.0 Volts. Then, with engine off, turn headlights on, maybe rear screen heater too and operate the starter. It should spin the engine rapidly and you shouldn't see any great voltage drop at the meter. ie, maybe no less than 11 volts but more is better.

It's important to have the volt meter (multimeter) probes on the actual battery posts to eliminate the possibility of poor connections at the battery terminals whilst you are doing this.

It's not unusual to find a poor battery highlighted by the fitting of a new starter. Our boss always insisted, and it was a policy I carried with me when I became a workshop foreman myself, that a proper battery load test was always done when fitting a new starter. Of course this was good business practice too as we sold batteries! But good for customers too because neither they nor we wanted them coming back with the starting problems we had just been trying to fix for them.

Of course you may need to consider poor cable connections - and the earth cable connection to the chassis on the inner wing (under the battery) is a known weakness as is that earth lead itself which is known to corrode internally. However the battery itself is the obvious place to start.

By the way, I'm suggesting turning the lights and rear screen heater on to place load on the electrical system (these place a high current demand on the battery) so when you operate the starter (which really "hits" the battery) any weakness or inability to deliver will be obvious. However, many modern cars now cut out other circuits when you operate the starter (so it gets maximum available Ooph) so sometimes switching on these ancillaries doesn't have the desired effect - doesn't harm to try it though. In the "old days" before they had these isolating protocols, a good, but very rough, check of battery condition was to stop the car nose on to a wall or other vertical surface and turn the ignition off, turn the headlights and rear screen heater, if you had one, on and try to start the engine. If the headlights dimmed sygnificantly or actually went out, you probably needed a new battery! Now a days, the "clever" darned isolating protocols will turn the lights off anyway so this simple way of testing is now impossible. A great shame as it worked very well.

Accessory Load test doesn't work on the Panda. Been there done that. When you crank the engine the headlights go off. I had a faulty ignition switch and because the headlights were going off I assumed wrongly the starter was faulty another 1/2 hour of my life wasted I will never get back.

 

[koalar]

If you haven't got a multi meter its worth getting one anyhow. Seen them in a budget shop for less than a fiver. Used one as well. Test fuses and volts as it should.

 

[varesecrazy]

But for the few minuets it takes a substation battery is just as easy

How do you find a local Substation?

 

[koalar]

How do you find a local Substation?

Usually next to the substitution using auto correct.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Accessory Load test doesn't work on the Panda. Been there done that. When you crank the engine the headlights go off. I had a faulty ignition switch and because the headlights were going off I assumed wrongly the starter was faulty another 1/2 hour of my life wasted I will never get back.

Yup, of course you're right there.

I think the point to be taken when battery testing is that you need something which will "stress" the battery and make it "work". Perhaps like this: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/sealey-bt917-7-battery-drop-tester-612v/ which is likely to apply a current demand around 100 amps across the battery posts. but maybe not like this: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cbat1-12v-automotive-batteryalternator/ which you can see from the size of the leads alone, will not be able to draw any "real" current. The second device is really only doing what a multimeter can do whilst removing the need for the operator to have any knowledge of the actual values expected.

Basically a starter motor pulls a large current, Maybe 80 to 100 amps on a petrol engine just at the point it starts to spin the engine? and higher, 150A? on a diesel. Lets not argue about actual values, which will vary with different engines and conditions. The fact is a pretty poor battery with lots of sulphation on it's plates, so reducing the area of each plate that can actually react and produce electricity, can still be charged up to show a "good" result when tested with a multimeter or simple tester. But, when a large current is required this battery just won't "cut the mustard" and to test that you need to ask it to deliver a large current.

One last thought. I'd be reluctant to do a heavy discharge test on a battery still connected to the car with all the electronics still in circuit. Likely no harm would ensue, but I'm a "fierty" and would feel happier to isolate it first. I'd also say that I do know quite a bit about traditional lead acid battery problems, having worked with them most of my life. I feel less confident with EFB and AGM types commonly used with today's Stop/Start technology, so I stand to be corrected if test recommendations have changed with them.

 

[koalar]

Yup, of course you're right there.

I think the point to be taken when battery testing is that you need something which will "stress" the battery and make it "work". Perhaps like this: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/sealey-bt917-7-battery-drop-tester-612v/ which is likely to apply a current demand around 100 amps across the battery posts. but maybe not like this: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cbat1-12v-automotive-batteryalternator/ which you can see from the size of the leads alone, will not be able to draw any "real" current. The second device is really only doing what a multimeter can do whilst removing the need for the operator to have any knowledge of the actual values expected.

Basically a starter motor pulls a large current, Maybe 80 to 100 amps on a petrol engine just at the point it starts to spin the engine? and higher, 150A? on a diesel. Lets not argue about actual values, which will vary with different engines and conditions. The fact is a pretty poor battery with lots of sulphation on it's plates, so reducing the area of each plate that can actually react and produce electricity, can still be charged up to show a "good" result when tested with a multimeter or simple tester. But, when a large current is required this battery just won't "cut the mustard" and to test that you need to ask it to deliver a large current.

One last thought. I'd be reluctant to do a heavy discharge test on a battery still connected to the car with all the electronics still in circuit. Likely no harm would ensue, but I'm a "fierty" and would feel happier to isolate it first. I'd also say that I do know quite a bit about traditional lead acid battery problems, having worked with them most of my life. I feel less confident with EFB and AGM types commonly used with today's Stop/Start technology, so I stand to be corrected if test recommendations have changed with them.

Correct

For a one off its not worth buying a proper tester

Remove the fuel pump fuse and cranking the engine for 15 seconds does the same job. Just need to measure the volts. Theres bright yellow meter in home and bargains, BM bargains or similar. I got one last year while I was 200 miles from home. Cant remember the exact price but less than a £5

 

[Night35]

Just buy a meter use it and return it- money back. Been told twice go to Halfords garage for a battery check as free. No obligation for work/replacement.

 

[DaveMcT]

A cheap multimeter is perfectly adequate for checking the system voltage. They are probably not so good for electronic resistance checks, but how often does a car mech need that? The current setting (amps) is max 10Amps so accuracy is irrelevant in this situation.

A cheap voltmeter permanently wired into an ignition controlled circuit will show you any charging trends. Total accuracy is not a big issue as they only read to one decimal place and you are looking for trends under load rather than electronic accuracy.

 

[Night35]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071JL6LLL/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

bought this

 

[DaveMcT]

I had a battery so bad that worked fine when car was parked on level ground but went flat when parked on a steep hill. I got the engine running with a jump start but had to disconnect the battery as it was shorting away too much power.

After a five mins drive to Halfords the assistant insisted on testing the battery and pronounced it was fine. I said it really isn't fine, Started the car and switched it off (twice), then asked him to try again. It was now more than 50% flat. The lad was really surprised, but I hope he learned that electronic testers are no use if you don't load the battery and recheck the values.


I bought a nice Yuasa Silver then found the same on eBay for a fraction of the price. But to be fair, Halfords were there when I needed them.

 

[nitramtpr]

Euro Car Parts are always good for a battery in a hurry, but always remember to do a click and collect from their website first using that days discount code, it'll be ready to collect in a few minutes and will be cheaper than if you just popped in, even if you order from their car park before going in!

 

[koalar]

I had a battery so bad that worked fine when car was parked on level ground but went flat when parked on a steep hill. I got the engine running with a jump start but had to disconnect the battery as it was shorting away too much power.

After a five mins drive to Halfords the assistant insisted on testing the battery and pronounced it was fine. I said it really isn't fine, Started the car and switched it off (twice), then asked him to try again. It was now more than 50% flat. The lad was really surprised, but I hope he learned that electronic testers are no use if you don't load the battery and recheck the values.


I bought a nice Yuasa Silver then found the same on eBay for a fraction of the price. But to be fair, Halfords were there when I needed them.

Euro Car Parts are always good for a battery in a hurry, but always remember to do a click and collect from their website first using that days discount code, it'll be ready to collect in a few minutes and will be cheaper than if you just popped in, even if you order from their car park before going in!

sometimes you can cheat the system

but it does vary from store to store.

Crewe will not give an online price full stop unless you have used click and collect. I have had successfully mentioned the online price and other stores have matched it without me having to go to Tesco and ordering via click and collect and coming back.

 

[nitramtpr]

sometimes you can cheat the system

but it does vary from store to store.

Crewe will not give an online price full stop unless you have used click and collect. I have had successfully mentioned the online price and other stores have matched it without me having to go to Tesco and ordering via click and collect and coming back.

Yes, my local store refuse point blank to honour their online prices, they say they're only for click and collect. The first (and only) time it happened I paid the in store price, every time I need anything there and then I do a click and collect.
The only thing cheaper in store is the bottles of distilled water! As we live in a really hard water area we go through loads for the steam iron and floor steam mop.

 

[Night35]

Arrived and not got a clue with this