Having checked & ruled out the g'box/chassis earth strap (see later thread) & having kept detailed records of starting attempts over last few months I took the van back to the dealer for investigation. They diagnosed a faulty starter motor & replaced it (no charge of course). They say this has fixed the starting problem; I hope so - time will tell!
Technical Diesel Battery analysis
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Technical
Diesel
Battery analysis
You mean as I mentioned at #2? 
As I said, I have seen a remarkable difference in cranking speed from a good replacement starter, with old ones getting hot and burning out the field windings inside the starter after repeated engine crankings, so often worth checking the starter isn't getting too hot.
Sometimes a good high power amp meter will show if starter taking excessive power to operate.
Fingers crossed it solves the problem for when colder weather comes.
As I said, I have seen a remarkable difference in cranking speed from a good replacement starter, with old ones getting hot and burning out the field windings inside the starter after repeated engine crankings, so often worth checking the starter isn't getting too hot.
Sometimes a good high power amp meter will show if starter taking excessive power to operate.
Fingers crossed it solves the problem for when colder weather comes.
You did indeed!You mean as I mentioned at #2?
As I said, I have seen a remarkable difference in cranking speed from a good replacement starter, with old ones getting hot and burning out the field windings inside the starter after repeated engine crankings, so often worth checking the starter isn't getting too hot.
Sometimes a good high power amp meter will show if starter taking excessive power to operate.
Fingers crossed it solves the problem for when colder weather comes.
Joking apart have you been able to notice the engine spinning over quicker to start from cold as that will be a good guide, I always liked my earlier 2.8 Sofim diesel engines that even in the middle of Winter would burst in to life almost as soon as touched the key, no long cranking over.
Thanks - will see if that's the case.Joking apart have you been able to notice the engine spinning over quicker to start from cold as that will be a good guide, I always liked my earlier 2.8 Sofim diesel engines that even in the middle of Winter would burst in to life almost as soon as touched the key, no long cranking over.
My immediate concern is to understand:
1. Whether the starter motor's performance degraded simply because of its age (it could have been 17 yrs old - I need to ask the dealership if they can date it).
2. If not, what might have caused it to degrade (i.e. what else to check to prevent the new one going the same way);
3. What if any damage (e.g. to the battery) it could have caused since it's performance deteriorated; &
4. Whether the facts that a)after the dealership's drop test (which boosted the battery capacity temporarily at least) it started promptly & b) on a few occasions it started after only a little cranking, are consistent with a failing Starter Motor.
In my experience although a gradually deterioration of performance over time due to brush wear etc. may occur, I have usually found that hard "flogging over" of the starter when another issue was causing the non starting is usually the cause of starter overheating and burning out/turning over slowly.
Flogging over also makes the battery and starter and earth leads get a hard time, I have seen both battery and leads get hot after some idiot has kept on turning the starter key.
The good advice when trying to start any vehicle is try a few turns then rest the starter for a short while before trying again, I would point out any modern petrol or diesel should start almost instantly and if it doesn't then you could turn it a million times or tow it to the moon and it will still not start until the problem has been fixed.
A "drop test" will not boost the batteries capacity/performance, they may have killed doing the test and had to recharge before returning the vehicle to you.
I have a modern battery tester which measures it without subjecting to a massive strain which garages used to do in the past, but hopefully stopped!
"Mechanics also use dedicated battery drop or "load" testers, which draw massive electrical current from the battery to simulate engine cranking while monitoring how well the voltage holds up under physical stress."
These type are also known as High Rate Discharge Meters and not recommended any more. when batteries had tops you could unscrew to top up the acid or distilled water then when those tests were done a duff battery could be seen when under load as that weak cell would boil furiously, you cannot do that with a sealed modern battery.
Answers
1-you will never know unless you have old one and send it to expert for diagnosis.
2-you will never know
3-you will never know
4-you will never know
Stop worrying about it , you will not get a new battery out of the dealer, your prints of battery health check were ok. In the future if you need a new battery they are not crazy pricey, Tanya batteries on line are great.
Special note Enjoy your van
Sorry - I was told as I left school by my Housemaster never to stop asking questions!
I do tend to use Tayna & will be quite happy to shell out for a new battery when appropriate but at the start of this saga, when it wasn't clear if the van had come with a reasonable one given it was a used vehicle purchase, I was concerned I'd been 'done'....
Hi 1stDucato,
No need to say sorry at all.
Questions are good that's why I answer them (-:
If you have old starter you are welcome to post it too me for diagnosis.
You have previously had battery tested independently and result was good, no need to keep flogging that horse.
Great you persisted and posted video sound of very very slow crank speed which enabled you to get a new starter.
If you had replied to question about volts when cranking I would have been able to inform you further about starter mode of failure but unfortunately you didn't answer.
Now it's time to post new sound clip of crank speed for those of us who helped you and others in future.
I have asked mod to combine your threads on starting issues for clarity for all.
Now is time to dive and enjoy your van.
Kind regards
J
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Thank you very much for your considered & informative response. Re Drop test: apologies - I must have misunderstood what I turned up online when I googled the term. I was interested to learn what they'd done to the battery when I found that it started promptly the day after (but not subsequently!) but they didn't admit to having recharged it let alone having reconditioned it....
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In my defence I must say I'm aware of the dangers of flogging a battery & generally limited myself to at most 3-4 cranks & leaving a few minutes gap between attempts. Even though I was anxious to accumulate ASAP evidence of the poor starting performance, I also avoided trying to start the van unless I was ready to take it for a reasonable run if/when it did start.
You were suspicious of it soon after purchase, so it sounds like a previous owner/driver may have been or had problems.
I was from the very start: although it showed signs of being valued by (a) previous owner(s) - a Solar Panel & Diesel Heater had been added - there have been 10 of them over its 17 years. Given it had the feature we wanted at a reasonable price, I was prepared to assume that, being a LWB with a 3L engine, some had found it a bit too big & thirsty. But, as @jackwhoo would no doubt tell me, I'll never know!
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The fantastic 3litre engine having loads of torque is very likely to use less fuel in the real world than a smaller engine being worked harder all the time.
in an attempt to get to the point and get accurate information across my posts may appear overly direct. A lot of time and experience goes into replies even if replies short.
in an attempt to get to the point and get accurate information across my posts may appear overly direct. A lot of time and experience goes into replies even if replies short.
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I've certainly welcomed the increased P/W ratio compared with our previous 1.9L Trafic in a hilly environment although the Tempo inevitably feels less 'manoeuvrable' as it were; & I've yet to develop a sensitive enough right foot to ensure a non-jerky experience when setting off!. Your "less fuel" point is well made but on the other hand I find I'm always worrying about not having the revs sufficiently high to ensure dpf regeneration can take place. I'd really like having some early indication of the coming need for regeneration before the light comes on so I can get to the nearest motorway - some 50 minutes away - before it goes into limp mode....
High Mike, I've just come across this thread , interesting isn't it? The heavy discharge drop tester was a device I became very used to using when I was working foreman in that Firestone tyre and auto store. I like it as it puts the battery under considerable stress. If it survives and gives a good reading then you can be pretty sure the battery is in reasonable nick. On quite new vehicles I worry a little about damaging the electronics when introducing such high currents unless the battery leads are disconnected first as this has it's own problems with memory retentions etc. However, on the other hand, all you're doing is what the starter does anyway so probably OK? I like the idea of the newer Battery condition checkers which measure by passing a small current through the battery and measuring cell resistance - I think? They are safe to use without disconnecting the battery but have one big drawback for me which is that you have to know the battery spec figures and these are, as you say, usually on a label on the top of the battery - The damned Scala has a great big construction, which contains various connections and fuses, masking view of the top of the battery, so you have to disconnect the battery terminals to remove it so you can see the info sticker which, of course means you're into connecting slave devices if you're not to loose the memory settings. What PITA! Even the dealercan't give me definitive info on what battery is in it as several were used over the production run.More to the point, what does it start like after leaving for a week, that should indicate if there is an problem.
I have left some of mine for over a month and turned the key and started straight away.
When you had the local electrician do his test with a printout, did it give a % reading of the amperage compared with what is stated on the label on the battery. So if for example the battery has written on it 740EN then on testing I would expect it to show at least 700EN as it's cranking capacity on a old battery.
If you cannot trust it to start easily in mild weather , imagine trying to start it with frost or snow on the ground.
Can you test when it is sluggish to start and see if hooking it up to a good battery and quality jump leads if it makes a noticeable difference.
Saw this online.:-
- Load/Drop Tester (Best Method): A tool (like this one on Amazon) applies a load (similar to starting the car) for 10 seconds. A healthy battery stays in the "green" zone.
- Voltage Drop Test (Multimeter):Measures voltage reduction when cranking. If voltage falls below 9.6v (at 70degrees F)
), the battery is likely weak.
- The "Bounce" Test: A crude, non-scientific method where a charged (good) battery makes a dull "thud" when dropped 2-3 inches, while a discharged (bad) battery often bounces.
- Headlight Test: Turn on headlights with the engine off. If they are dim or get significantly dimmer when starting the car, the battery is weak.
- I have never in over 50 years in the motortrade seen any one do a "Bounce test", it sounds to me pretty stupid thing to do. It will drop all the sediment from the battery plates down where they could short out the battery making it scrap and possible blow up/short out.
- The test with the meter I described will not damage the battery but give a good guide to it's health/condition.
Headlight test was a very useful thing to do but now made useless because most cars now cut current to stuff like headlights, heated screen and other high current stuff when the starter is cranking. I guess so they can fit smaller cheaper batteries? I used to use this quick and easy test often as an initial, on the forecourt, check and lament it's passing.
The "bounce test" sounds absolutely horrific to me and if it doesn't succeed in cracking the casing is almost certain to drop both sulphate sediment and even good lead paste into the bottom and, as you say, cause plate shorts which will ruin even a perfectly good battery - I've never heard of anyone doing this "test" - maybe an Ai abomination?
Always enjoy your posts/comments. Thank you. Keep up the good work and don't let the heat get to you this coming week!
Edit. The heavy discharge type testers were criticised for ruining batteries due to the "extreme" stress they put the battery under. Often 100 to 150 amps or even more - I remember when I needed to order a new one I could get the standard one with just one amperage rating or a more expensive one with, I think, 3 selectable loads? I just got the standard one as we really only did cars and light vans - What I found in practice was that sometimes putting the heavy discharge on it would cause the battery to fail due to the high current draw. Typically this would mean a vehicle which had struggled to start on the customers' drive that morning, was now totally dead. Very occasionally this then resulted in the customer claiming you'd "ruined" his battery when in fact all it had done was prove the battery was on it's last legs anyway. I always explained the possible outcomes to customers before we did one of these tests and this removed the possibility of confusion. The tester we had was just a couple of probes with a great big heavy resistance strip between them and a volt meter to monitor battery voltage. It was an all in one device, you held the two handle/knobs and quickly jammed the probe tips onto the battery terminals. You needed to be quick to avoid sparks as it was permanently connected. Then, for about 10 seconds or so, you watched what the voltmeter was doing. If it held steady you were probably Ok. If the needle fell back towards the lower voltages then a new battery was needed (we could always argue about actual voltage figures but it was the steady needle you were looking for) Then you yanked it back off the terminals quickly again so as to minimise the possibility of a spark igniting the gasses which the poor old battery was almost certainly producing as a result of the stress it had been under! The big advantage from my perspective is that you don't have to know anything except the battery voltage type - ie. 6, 12, or maybe 24 volts and mostly you'll only be into 12 volts unless you mess about with older stuff and some higher end horticultural machines which just may be either 6 or 12 volt. Not being able to see the battery label or having to convert a European EN spec to the CCA scale your American made battery condition tester uses is an advantage too.
Now a days you can buy this type of tester pretty cheaply: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20553633...bu8o/DFvj9oob+5GUBbaAQEsE=|tkp:Bk9SR8jC6pjdZw
However I'd advise doing a bit of due diligence and research as I've read some of these very cheap ones can suffer failure of the big internal resistance.
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I believe there was Forum member who had a method of getting the information re Regens and having some control over it. Sorry to be a bit vague I think it was a piece of electronics he had made.
We have had similar experiences.High Mike, I've just come across this thread , interesting isn't it? The heavy discharge drop tester was a device I became very used to using when I was working foreman in that Firestone tyre and auto store. I like it as it puts the battery under considerable stress. If it survives and gives a good reading then you can be pretty sure the battery is in reasonable nick. On quite new vehicles I worry a little about damaging the electronics when introducing such high currents unless the battery leads are disconnected first as this has it's own problems with memory retentions etc. However, on the other hand, all you're doing is what the starter does anyway so probably OK? I like the idea of the newer Battery condition checkers which measure by passing a small current through the battery and measuring cell resistance - I think? They are safe to use without disconnecting the battery but have one big drawback for me which is that you have to know the battery spec figures and these are, as you say, usually on a label on the top of the battery - The damned Scala has a great big construction, which contains various connections and fuses, masking view of the top of the battery, so you have to disconnect the battery terminals to remove it so you can see the info sticker which, of course means you're into connecting slave devices if you're not to loose the memory settings. What PITA! Even the dealercan't give me definitive info on what battery is in it as several were used over the production run.
Headlight test was a very useful thing to do but now made useless because most cars now cut current to stuff like headlights, heated screen and other high current stuff when the starter is cranking. I guess so they can fit smaller cheaper batteries? I used to use this quick and easy test often as an initial, on the forecourt, check and lament it's passing.
The "bounce test" sounds absolutely horrific to me and if it doesn't succeed in cracking the casing is almost certain to drop both sulphate sediment and even good lead paste into the bottom and, as you say, cause plate shorts which will ruin even a perfectly good battery - I've never heard of anyone doing this "test" - maybe an Ai abomination?
Always enjoy your posts/comments. Thank you. Keep up the good work and don't let the heat get to you this coming week!
Edit. The heavy discharge type testers were criticised for ruining batteries due to the "extreme" stress they put the battery under. Often 100 to 150 amps or even more - I remember when I needed to order a new one I could get the standard one with just one amperage rating or a more expensive one with, I think, 3 selectable loads? I just got the standard one as we really only did cars and light vans - What I found in practice was that sometimes putting the heavy discharge on it would cause the battery to fail due to the high current draw. Typically this would mean a vehicle which had struggled to start on the customers' drive that morning, was now totally dead. Very occasionally this then resulted in the customer claiming you'd "ruined" his battery when in fact all it had done was prove the battery was on it's last legs anyway. I always explained the possible outcomes to customers before we did one of these tests and this removed the possibility of confusion. The tester we had was just a couple of probes with a great big heavy resistance strip between them and a volt meter to monitor battery voltage. It was an all in one device, you held the two handle/knobs and quickly jammed the probe tips onto the battery terminals. You needed to be quick to avoid sparks as it was permanently connected. Then, for about 10 seconds or so, you watched what the voltmeter was doing. If it held steady you were probably Ok. If the needle fell back towards the lower voltages then a new battery was needed (we could always argue about actual voltage figures but it was the steady needle you were looking for) Then you yanked it back off the terminals quickly again so as to minimise the possibility of a spark igniting the gasses which the poor old battery was almost certainly producing as a result of the stress it had been under! The big advantage from my perspective is that you don't have to know anything except the battery voltage type - ie. 6, 12, or maybe 24 volts and mostly you'll only be into 12 volts unless you mess about with older stuff and some higher end horticultural machines which just may be either 6 or 12 volt. Not being able to see the battery label or having to convert a European EN spec to the CCA scale your American made battery condition tester uses is an advantage too.
Now a days you can buy this type of tester pretty cheaply: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/205536332720?_skw=discharge+type+battery+testers&itmmeta=01KVMRTM4EFRPY6WM6ETK0XA8V&hash=item2fdaeb8bb0:g:HbQAAeSwRndoa4FM&itmprp=enc:AQALAAABAGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11
However I'd advise doing a bit of due diligence and research as I've read some of these very cheap ones can suffer failure of the big internal resistance.
I used one like this as an apprentice and the element would glow red hot under load so certainly put strain on the batteries, I then bought this and some other diagnostic tools from a retired American car mechanic and then finally I bought this digital one which is much kinder but as you say you need to be able to read the battery spec. Recently I had to check and replace the battery on a Peugeot 3008 which is as you describe well boxed in so hard to read any details until out of car.
When I dived into my garage to find the middle one, I searched all over the shelves and then found I had walked past it on the floor. The middle one did have the advantage over the basic first one as you could turn the knob to increase the load progressively after connecting the clamps so a bit safer.
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We are from the same era Mike and seem to have very much the same experience and approach to our cars - although you have more time in on heavier stuff. I really never got involved in anything bigger than a Transit/LDV van. So pretty much all running gear similar to cars, although occasionally I'd run into a fully floating rear wheel bearing on twin rear wheel vans. Mind you, way back when, I seem to remember the morris minor had a semi floating setup on the rear didn't it? (ie, just one bearing but mounted to the outside of the axle tube? Oh dear, the memory is dim these days.We have had similar experiences.
I used one like this as an apprentice and the element would glow red hot under load so certainly put strain on the batteries, I then bought this and some other diagnostic tools from a retired American car mechanic and then finally I bought this digital one which is much kinder but as you say you need to be able to read the battery spec. Recently I had to check and replace the battery on a Peugeot 3008 which is as you describe well boxed in so hard to read any details until out of car.
Oh I know that one, happens to me all the time. I can walk right past something and only notice it on the way back to the door! I like the looks of your big red tester and the fact it's load adjustable. I've been saving for something like the Topdon BT200 https://eu.topdon.com/en-gb/product...5NiDgCwXCyurRpvA09GvJIG2f9aL14P5Gl5HnEVjz_xAA They also make the cheaper BT100 but it doesn't get such a good review. No colour display and has a lower spec whilst not being all that much cheaper. Grant at Gendan is tempting me to buy the Foxwell BT715: https://www.gendan.co.uk/product_FXBT715.html with a bit of extra discount last time I enquired, which seems to be a similar quality/spec product.When I dived into my garage to find the middle one, I searched all over the shelves and then found I had walked past it on the floor. The middle one did have the advantage over the basic first one as you could turn the knob to increase the load progressively after connecting the clamps so a bit safer.
I've been very pleased with the Ring Smart Battery charger I bought last year. I think I see your analyser is a Ring? how do you like it and what, if you don't mind telling me, did it cost. I really don't need an attached printer of course.
Hi Jock,
Heavy current draw load testers were at one point all the rage and pretty much all that was available. I found/find that disable the engine starting and cranking on starter for 10 seconds while watching voltage drop(analog volt meter good for this) performs similar function while current draw of starter better matched to battery spec.
The digital testers can be good but oddly can condemn an apparently perfectly performing battery as bad replace.
Best
Jack