Technical Diesel Battery analysis

[1stDucato]

Further to my initial post "What have I got?"(a question now answered thanks to colleagues on here), I've been checking the vehicle's battery voltage over the last 4 days via the display built into the 2xUSB socket alongside the lighter socket. On turning the ignition to the 1st/Acc position the display initially reads ~11.6v but climbs to ~12.4v after ~10s (sometimes the aftermarket (?) Radio/Android play console comes on but I shut it down). Today I continued on to start the Ducato(with clutch pedal pressed) but it was very sluggish & I stopped turning the key after~5s. The display still read ~12+v after this attempt & after another 10-20s I tried again & this time it started - not that 'happily' - with the display then reading ~14+v. I've read threads on this forum which lead me to think checking the various grounding points might be worthwhile & I'd be grateful for advice as to the order in which it might be best to do this taking into account the ease of doing so with the vehicle parked on the drive.

 

[bugsymike]

Further to my initial post "What have I got?"(a question now answered thanks to colleagues on here), I've been checking the vehicle's battery voltage over the last 4 days via the display built into the 2xUSB socket alongside the lighter socket. On turning the ignition to the 1st/Acc position the display initially reads ~11.6v but climbs to ~12.4v after ~10s (sometimes the aftermarket (?) Radio/Android play console comes on but I shut it down). Today I continued on to start the Ducato(with clutch pedal pressed) but it was very sluggish & I stopped turning the key after~5s. The display still read ~12+v after this attempt & after another 10-20s I tried again & this time it started - not that 'happily' - with the display then reading ~14+v. I've read threads on this forum which lead me to think checking the various grounding points might be worthwhile & I'd be grateful for advice as to the order in which it might be best to do this taking into account the ease of doing so with the vehicle parked on the drive.

Personally I would test the battery ideally with something like this below.You key in the details from the top of battery re cranking capabilities SAE or EN etc. Then it measures the actually current cranking in to compare with what it should be.
Also after a short period of cranking (continuous kills the battery and the starter) just put your hands on the main battery leads and earth terminals to see if they are getting hot as a sign of resistance, meaning they need cleaning or replacing. Note also sometimes starters get hot internally after excessive cranking and this can burn out the windings. It is often the case after a starter is replaced that the owner mentions how much faster the engine cranks over.
Don't put too much reliance on cheap battery USB meters inside the vehicle, maybe just use as a rough guide.

 

[puntodad19]

Why oh why oh why do manufacturers of modern cars not allow the engine to start unless the clutch pedal is pressed ?

Well, is it the moron driver does not have enough intelligence to know the gearbox is in neutral, is it the manufacturers want the engine to only just outlast the warrantee period, then sell the owner another engine or vehicle, or a combination of both ?


It is so damaging to start an engine with the clutch pedal pressed, push or pull clutch release method employed, don't matter.

If you don't understand why, look at engine parts exploded views.....

Ask yourself "what happens when I press the clutch pedal ?".

 

[bugsymike]

Why oh why oh why do manufacturers of modern cars not allow the engine to start unless the clutch pedal is pressed ?

Well, is it the moron driver does not have enough intelligence to know the gearbox is in neutral, is it the manufacturers want the engine to only just outlast the warrantee period, then sell the owner another engine or vehicle, or a combination of both ?


It is so damaging to start an engine with the clutch pedal pressed, push or pull clutch release method employed, don't matter.

If you don't understand why, look at engine parts exploded views.....

Ask yourself "what happens when I press the clutch pedal ?".

100% agree @puntodad19 , I recall going out to a breakdown in early 70s and was told it was a flat battery and to jump start the car.
On testing I soon realised the engine was seized solid and not simply a case of inertia starter jammed into flywheel ring gear which was also common at the time before pre engaged starters.
We towed the Hillman Minx/Singer Gazelle? back to garage and stripped the engine and soon found the problem, the crankshaft had welded it's self to the engine block due to eating away the crank thrust bearings.
The cause was the owner was an old school lorry driver from probably the 1930s when the gear oil in the very basic gearboxes was very thick, so in cold weather the solution was to hold the clutch down when starting to reduce drag.
This may have worked for those old lorries but newer vehicles are not designed to take that end thrust especially when there is no engine oil pumping around protecting it on a cold start, so after repeated starts using that method the engine was destroyed as too badly damaged to be rebuilt.
When one of my daughters bought a VW Tiguian with that starting method I hated it as a very poor design.

 

[NeilDD]

From an electronics point of view, a battery may have a voltage of 12V (Nominal) it may only have the capacity of a flat PP3
In a full state of charge your battery should have around 12.4V ish

From everything you've said I would say your battery is FUBAR, but put a proper load tester on it to confirm. These can be got from AliExpress

 

[1stDucato]

From an electronics point of view, a battery may have a voltage of 12V (Nominal) it may only have the capacity of a flat PP3
In a full state of charge your battery should have around 12.4V ish

From everything you've said I would say your battery is FUBAR, but put a proper load tester on it to confirm. These can be got from AliExpress

Thanks for your response. The dealer I bought the van from a few days ago said such a test had been done & the battery had a few years life in it!

 

[1stDucato]

Why oh why oh why do manufacturers of modern cars not allow the engine to start unless the clutch pedal is pressed ?

Well, is it the moron driver does not have enough intelligence to know the gearbox is in neutral, is it the manufacturers want the engine to only just outlast the warrantee period, then sell the owner another engine or vehicle, or a combination of both ?


It is so damaging to start an engine with the clutch pedal pressed, push or pull clutch release method employed, don't matter.

If you don't understand why, look at engine parts exploded views.....

Ask yourself "what happens when I press the clutch pedal ?".

I was following the starting procedure on p134 of my newly purchased Fiat Ducato's manual. Researching the subject I find there seems to be a significant majority of opinion in favour of clutch depression in terms of the trade off between unloading the starter & the effect you highlight. In fact, it is suggested that designs of more modern vehicles allow for & mitigate the latter issue.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your response. The dealer I bought the van from a few days ago said such a test had been done & the battery had a few years life in it!

More to the point, if you have just bought a fairly expensive purchase that is sluggish to start, whether it is the battery or something even more expensive, what is he doing about fixing it under warranty?
A modern diesel should almost start as soon as you flick the key. Mine do.

 

[bugsymike]

I was following the starting procedure on p134 of my newly purchased Fiat Ducato's manual. Researching the subject I find there seems to be a significant majority of opinion in favour of clutch depression in terms of the trade off between unloading the starter & the effect you highlight. In fact, it is suggested that designs of more modern vehicles allow for & mitigate the latter issue.

My point regarding clutch pedal down starting is, it is an inherently bad design that the affects of which will only show up once the vehicle is long out of warranty, it also puts extra strain on the clutch hydraulics if pedal is held down during prolonged attempts to start for what ever reason .

 

[1stDucato]

More to the point, if you have just bought a fairly expensive purchase that is sluggish to start, whether it is the battery or something even more expensive, what is he doing about fixing it under warranty?
A modern diesel should almost start as soon as you flick the key. Mine do.

I agree. But whilst it's generally accepted that on handover a vehicle should have at least 1/4 tank of fuel, I'm not sure what objective criteria regarding ignition/starting performance are generally regarded as applicable on handover & what it is reasonable to expect in the way of performance against those criteria. At the moment all I can say to the dealer is that I'd remarked the vehicle didn't start easily on first viewing & that I'd said before agreeing to buy it that I wanted that seen to. Of course it started ok when I collected it but that was because it had been on charge for at least the hour or so handover period....

 

[1stDucato]

My point regarding clutch pedal down starting is, it is an inherently bad design that the affects of which will only show up once the vehicle is long out of warranty, it also puts extra strain on the clutch hydraulics if pedal is held down during prolonged attempts to start for what ever reason .

Thank you for your continuing interest in my issue. If I understand you correctly, you believe that the instructions in the manual are disingenuous in that they are simply designed to make money for the manufacturer in the longer term. I'm now wondering what other instructions/advice in the manual I should ignore or countermand.

 

[bugsymike]

I agree. But whilst it's generally accepted that on handover a vehicle should have at least 1/4 tank of fuel, I'm not sure what objective criteria regarding ignition/starting performance are generally regarded as applicable on handover & what it is reasonable to expect in the way of performance against those criteria. At the moment all I can say to the dealer is that I'd remarked the vehicle didn't start easily on first viewing & that I'd said before agreeing to buy it that I wanted that seen to. Of course it started ok when I collected it but that was because it had been on charge for at least the hour or so handover period....

You are fortunate to have been given a 1/4 tank full of fuel, I have seen salesmen run vehicles themselves until nearly out of fuel and then put them on the forecourt and in the old days cash in the car tax as well.
To me a vehicle that doesn't start on first turn of the key easily has something wrong. If you have to "flog it over" now what is it going to be likely on a cold Winters day? I would definitely get the Dealer to fix that and put it in writing if necessary as you have already mentioned it to them and it isn't right. It's not like it is a £500 banger! Give them the chance to fix it, but don't be fobbed off.
Re your other piece about the manual, I just feel it is a bad design that puts load on the mechanical parts before oil gets around to protect it, throw in poor starting and it makes the problem worse.

 

[MSjoberg]

My point regarding clutch pedal down starting is, it is an inherently bad design that the affects of which will only show up once the vehicle is long out of warranty, it also puts extra strain on the clutch hydraulics if pedal is held down during prolonged attempts to start for what ever reason .

Very interesting! I have used this starting procedure since I was recommended it 50+ years ago and not encountered any such affects. Have I been extremely lucky?

 

[bugsymike]

Very interesting! I have used this starting procedure since I was recommended it 50+ years ago and not encountered any such affects. Have I been extremely lucky?

Maybe you have or maybe I have seen more vehicles with problems caused by it.
I seem to recall s/h Nissan Cherries in the late 80s had a problem with clutch operation caused by excessive crank thrust wear, it was possible to grab the Crankshaft pulley and pull it backwards and forwards by quite an unusual amount. I also had a car with a similar engine to the one I had experienced as an apprentice that I mentioned earlier with the excessive end float. It was only a cheap car £20, so I did a bodge, not proud of it but it worked . I dropped the sump in my dinner hour at work took down the centre main bearing which holds the crank thrust bearings, C shapes and drilled and pop riveted a replacement new thrust bearing in place as the wear on the engine block was so excessive a new thrust washer would have just spun around and would not be located. The bodge worked for many thousands of miles.
It was more apparent on multi spring clutch pressure plates than diaphragm ones as the diaphragm ones have a softer action, which may account for it being less common these days, but that doesn't stop it being bad design in my eyes to put pressure on a bearing before oil gets around it by having to depress the clutch to activate the starter.

 

[1stDucato]

Personally I would test the battery ideally with something like this below.You key in the details from the top of battery re cranking capabilities SAE or EN etc. Then it measures the actually current cranking in to compare with what it should be.
Also after a short period of cranking (continuous kills the battery and the starter) just put your hands on the main battery leads and earth terminals to see if they are getting hot as a sign of resistance, meaning they need cleaning or replacing. Note also sometimes starters get hot internally after excessive cranking and this can burn out the windings. It is often the case after a starter is replaced that the owner mentions how much faster the engine cranks over.
Don't put too much reliance on cheap battery USB meters inside the vehicle, maybe just use as a rough guide.

Thank you for your interest & advice. I'm just getting back to this issue having been busy elsewhere & have had the battery tested by a local garage who found that it was at only 46% cranking capacity & thought a cell or two must've died. So it's back to the motorhome dealer to see what recompence I can get but, although selling it in this condition doesn't seem right, I don't know whether there are any generally accepted objective standards that I can cite in support of my position....

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you for your interest & advice. I'm just getting back to this issue having been busy elsewhere & have had the battery tested by a local garage who found that it was at only 46% cranking capacity & thought a cell or two must've died. So it's back to the motorhome dealer to see what recompence I can get but, although selling it in this condition doesn't seem right, I don't know whether there are any generally accepted objective standards that I can cite in support of my position....

It certainly doesn't indicate a trust worthy seller. You may need to take legal advice when trying to have faults rectified by them or at their costs.
I would have thought under the sale of goods act, it would be termed, "Not Fit For Purpose"

 

[1stDucato]

Update. I took the van back to the MH dealer who gave the battery what they called a "drop test" which involved subjecting it to a sizeable electrical jolt, I believe. The van certainly burst into life the day after that but again, after a few days on the drive, it was back to needing 2 or 3 attempts before starting. It's now been standing for another week & I've just had the battery checked by a local auto-electrician who said its printout looked ok. He then suggested he test it when under load (blow me if it didn't start first time!) and again he pronounced the readings as being ok.
The only thing I can think of that's changed over the period I've had the van is that, particularly recently, the ambient temperature & the warmth of the sun have been a little greater. Could the battery be that sensitive ?

 

[bugsymike]

Update. I took the van back to the MH dealer who gave the battery what they called a "drop test" which involved subjecting it to a sizeable electrical jolt, I believe. The van certainly burst into life the day after that but again, after a few days on the drive, it was back to needing 2 or 3 attempts before starting. It's now been standing for another week & I've just had the battery checked by a local auto-electrician who said its printout looked ok. He then suggested he test it when under load (blow me if it didn't start first time!) and again he pronounced the readings as being ok.
The only thing I can think of that's changed over the period I've had the van is that, particularly recently, the ambient temperature & the warmth of the sun have been a little greater. Could the battery be that sensitive ?

More to the point, what does it start like after leaving for a week, that should indicate if there is an problem.
I have left some of mine for over a month and turned the key and started straight away.
When you had the local electrician do his test with a printout, did it give a % reading of the amperage compared with what is stated on the label on the battery. So if for example the battery has written on it 740EN then on testing I would expect it to show at least 700EN as it's cranking capacity on a old battery.
If you cannot trust it to start easily in mild weather , imagine trying to start it with frost or snow on the ground.
Can you test when it is sluggish to start and see if hooking it up to a good battery and quality jump leads if it makes a noticeable difference.
Saw this online.:-

• Load/Drop Tester (Best Method): A tool (like this one on Amazon) applies a load (similar to starting the car) for 10 seconds. A healthy battery stays in the "green" zone.
• Voltage Drop Test (Multimeter):Measures voltage reduction when cranking. If voltage falls below 9.6v (at 70degrees F)
  
  ), the battery is likely weak.
  • The "Bounce" Test: A crude, non-scientific method where a charged (good) battery makes a dull "thud" when dropped 2-3 inches, while a discharged (bad) battery often bounces.
  • Headlight Test: Turn on headlights with the engine off. If they are dim or get significantly dimmer when starting the car, the battery is weak.
  • 
    
  • I have never in over 50 years in the motortrade seen any one do a "Bounce test", it sounds to me pretty stupid thing to do. It will drop all the sediment from the battery plates down where they could short out the battery making it scrap and possible blow up/short out.
  • The test with the meter I described will not damage the battery but give a good guide to it's health/condition.

 

[1stDucato]

1. More to the point, what does it start like after leaving for a week, that should indicate if there is an problem.
2. When you had the local electrician do his test with a printout, did it give a % reading of the amperage compared with what is stated on the label on the battery. So if for example the battery has written on it 740EN then on testing I would expect it to show at least 700EN as it's cranking capacity on a old battery.

3. Can you test when it is sluggish to start and see if hooking it up to a good battery and quality jump leads if it makes a noticeable difference.
4. Saw this online.:-

• Load/Drop Tester (Best Method): A tool (like this one on Amazon) applies a load (similar to starting the car) for 10 seconds. A healthy battery stays in the "green" zone.
• Voltage Drop Test (Multimeter):Measures voltage reduction when cranking. If voltage falls below 9.6v (at 70degrees F)
  
  ), the battery is likely weak.

• 5. The "Bounce" Test: A crude, non-scientific method where a charged (good) battery makes a dull "thud" when dropped 2-3 inches, while a discharged (bad) battery often bounces.
• Headlight Test: Turn on headlights with the engine off. If they are dim or get significantly dimmer when starting the car, the battery is weak.
• I have never in over 50 years in the motortrade seen any one do a "Bounce test", it sounds to me pretty stupid thing to do. It will drop all the sediment from the battery plates down where they could short out the battery making it scrap and possible blow up/short out.
• The test with the meter I described will not damage the battery but give a good guide to it's health/condition.

Thanks again for your interest. I will respond to your points as I've numbered them:
Re 1: It had been standing for over a week today when it started first time;
2. Printouts attached: the 2nd one included headlights on main beam & radio on;
3. Next time it's sluggish I will try attaching a jump lead between the (-)ve terminal & the chassis to see if that helps;
4. That's what came up when I googled the term;
5. I didn't credit this at all: I assumed it had been inserted by a 'bad actor';

On reflection & in the light of other posts on here highlighting the importance of a good ground connection, I wonder if another explanation for the apparent improvement in the starting performance today might be the temperature increase driving out moisture that had been affecting the quality of the battery's connection to ground (cf my point at 3 about attaching a parallel jump lead connection which would test this hypothesis....).

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks again for your interest. I will respond to your points as I've numbered them:
Re 1: It had been standing for over a week today when it started first time;
2. Printouts attached: the 2nd one included headlights on main beam & radio on;
3. Next time it's sluggish I will try attaching a jump lead between the (-)ve terminal & the chassis to see if that helps;
4. That's what came up when I googled the term;
5. I didn't credit this at all: I assumed it had been inserted by a 'bad actor';

On reflection & in the light of other posts on here highlighting the importance of a good ground connection, I wonder if another explanation for the apparent improvement in the starting performance today might be the temperature increase driving out moisture that had been affecting the quality of the battery's connection to ground (cf my point at 3 about attaching a parallel jump lead connection which would test this hypothesis....).

So battery down to 76% but should still be acceptable.