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Dacia Sandero?
I must admit, I do find they stand out from all the overstyled stuff on the roads.
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Are Fiat clueless or rudderless?
Dacia Sandero?
I must admit, I do find they stand out from all the overstyled stuff on the roads.Not much love for the Sandero here, but the principle of removing overly complex garbage is sound, I reckon.
Heard a story today about a guy who had to scrap his Megane because the overall cost quoted for fixing the electronic hand brake was close to £1000. That just about says it all.
When Fiat got it right in the 80s, it was all about well thought out cars that were simple to repair and looked damn epic...even, like my Tipo, with a sexy digital dash!
Heard a story today about a guy who had to scrap his Megane because the overall cost quoted for fixing the electronic hand brake was close to £1000. That just about says it all.
When Fiat got it right in the 80s, it was all about well thought out cars that were simple to repair and looked damn epic...even, like my Tipo, with a sexy digital dash!
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Lol! As damn epic as the Grande you had?
I know plenty of people on here will hate me for this, but I actually really like the Sandero, and wouldn't rule out owning 1!
I must admit, I really don't get why the electronic parking brake became so popular. If the conventional mechanical handbrake was continuing to serve so well, why bother with all guff required for an electronic 1?! Absolute madness!
I have to admit, the Grande was pretty epic Not Tipo epic, but close enough. Having said that, the Grande didn't spend half as much time with its bonnet up and it's bits showing as the Tipo. So it's all relative I guess.
Not Tipo epic, but close enough. Having said that, the Grande didn't spend half as much time with its bonnet up and it's bits showing as the Tipo. So it's all relative I guess.Munchkin
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I was a teenager in the '70s so look back on some great Fiats, 127 Sport, 131 Twin Cam,124, Uno Turbo to name but a few. Really wish I'd owned a 131, very boring looks but far better engines and better suspended than Fords or Vauxhalls of the time.
The Strada I remember as being a milestone as one of if not the first robot assembled cars, a point made in it's advertising. I do remember changing a rusted tank on a 3 year old one though, stupid problem the like of which blotted Fiat reputation.
As much as onyone I want Fiat back to the days of providing interesting cars for everyone not just those wanting cutesie (500) or unintimidating (500L) cars. So come on all you septics (yanks) buy up those Chryslers and Jeeps and let Fiat make Europe interesting again.
Dacia Sandero?
I always liked the palio..Fiats 'worldcar'. MK1 Punto estate..whats not to like..
Rellie has spent 10K on a Dacia.. Ive so far resisted any. Indian built comments.
French designed electronics..now thatll cheer up any Italian car owner.
I think Fiat still have it. The New Panda - they redesigned the handbrake to save space, rather than 'over engineering' it like the Germans with the electronic interface. Simple to repair, old principles still apply :slayer:
I think Fiat still have it. The New Panda - they redesigned the handbrake to save space, rather than 'over engineering' it like the Germans with the electronic interface. Simple to repair, old principles still apply :slayer:
I think you'll find if you look about most manufacturers don't fit electronic hand brakes these days to lower end cars.
If you look in German cars you'll find VW fit a conventional hand brake in the up and the polo. My 6 month old golf has a normal hand brake but I think the mk7 golf has an electronic one. BMW fit a normal hand brake in the 1 and 3 series. While on the flip side the panda might have a normal hand brake but the 500x has an 'over engineered' electronic one. The mini hatch back has a normal hand brake but the clubman has an electronic one.
It really has nothing to do with German, Italian, English French or anything else, it depends very much how the designers want the interior of the car to look and feel
Original topic...Fiat have lost their direction. I wanted another Fiat when my 2nd mk1 Punto died but the Grande punto didn't float my boat and as its never been replaced I've never felt the need to look again. I did try several different flavours of mk3 panda (driven all of them except the 4x4) and I did like that but normal ones were too slow and 100hps have no springs. That type of car is what in my opinion Fiat did best no nonsense cars with a bit of fun. As a result I'm not a 500 fan so much..and each new iteration confirms how much Fiat now want to be MINI. Although I do accept it's all that keeps them afloat as the rest of the range is now criminally neglected.
Now even if they did a new car I wanted I'm not sure if I'd pull the trigger having read the problems people have with nearly new cars I'd really have to want it. Far too used to visiting the garage once a year for an mot and service and nothing else..while my Fiats never let me down in 5 years (minus a catastrophic piston ring failure caused by a catastrophic fuel injector failure filling a piston with fuel!) running repairs every few months was normal.
On the more recent topic...electric handbrakes are the spawn of Satan. At least the DS4 one I tried ruined the car..just what you need hill starting in an unfamiliar car, handbrake that releases when it wants, combined with a wooly clutch and a turbo diesel with a lag lag ignite power delivery..made the whole experience an adventure!
Now even if they did a new car I wanted I'm not sure if I'd pull the trigger having read the problems people have with nearly new cars I'd really have to want it. Far too used to visiting the garage once a year for an mot and service and nothing else..while my Fiats never let me down in 5 years (minus a catastrophic piston ring failure caused by a catastrophic fuel injector failure filling a piston with fuel!) running repairs every few months was normal.
On the more recent topic...electric handbrakes are the spawn of Satan. At least the DS4 one I tried ruined the car..just what you need hill starting in an unfamiliar car, handbrake that releases when it wants, combined with a wooly clutch and a turbo diesel with a lag lag ignite power delivery..made the whole experience an adventure!
I think the 500X is part of Fiats future direction to become more like the over-engineering brands to be honest. As much as I don't like it, I'm sure it sells to people, and that's what Fiat as a business must do!
...off to Dacia I go ;-)
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I wouldn't expect all future fiats to have an electric handbrake, it's what is expected in that class but your average city car probably wouldn't have one unless the class takes a shift.
That and although Dacia may have a similar ethos to old fiats I can't see it with its collection of old Clio bits having anywhere near the character at which point all you have is a new "second hand" ungalvanised Clio.
The issue Fiat has is although it now has a diverse range of brands there isn't a huge amount of overlap between them. This makes new platforms expensive, the VW way, where they have several brands all occupying the same sector mean they can engineer a single platform to be as cheap to build as possible and get several cars out of it spreading costs. It's then up to the customer to pay more or less for the same engineering depending on how they see themselves. Add to that a bit of badge snobbery so that you can charge for things that should be standard and you have a profitable car.
FCA runs from the panda to the Grand Cherokee with the best will in the world shared architecture will be difficult, at the lower end a new 500/panda/Grande platform is doable. Medium range you could overlap the guiletta and bravo replacements as they have as well as the various 4x4s from the same platform but going forward could the combined sales fund an expensive new platform? If not where do they go from there?
The combined Grande punto platform variants (Grande L X renegade, tipo) will not outsell one variant of the VW MQB platform so where will they get the money to engineer a world class platform in that sector? They are attempting to use economies of scale but the GP platform is nearly 10..it'll need replacing sooner or later. Also they need a new small car platform as well...and the jeep side of things will need attention to stay competitive so it's all a bit tight! Then there's things like engineering a good infotainment system which again costs a lot so would preferably need to be spread across many cars.
Engineering costs not over engineering, just getting a competitive car to market and I'm not if in it's current state fiat can pick up the bill.
I believe the rules for learner drivers say you can't take a test in a car with and electronic hand brake, that means most manufacturers will want to keep selling a lot of their small cars manually operated as learner cars a quite a popular way of marketing cars to new drivers, people want to buy the car they learned in, and instructors replaces cars regularly.
In this respect the 500, mini, corsa fiesta.... All those little cars that instructors use will still have a manual brake.
The likes of Mercedes have gone beyond this and I believe now don't sell a normal car with a manual brake.
With modern electronics an electronic hand brake is not overly complicated and means not having to thread cables through the body of the car. While the under side of most cars is becoming more and more cluttered with other technologies for emissions and hybrid technology, the manual brake will disappear in the future I don't doubt
In this respect the 500, mini, corsa fiesta.... All those little cars that instructors use will still have a manual brake.
The likes of Mercedes have gone beyond this and I believe now don't sell a normal car with a manual brake.
With modern electronics an electronic hand brake is not overly complicated and means not having to thread cables through the body of the car. While the under side of most cars is becoming more and more cluttered with other technologies for emissions and hybrid technology, the manual brake will disappear in the future I don't doubt
That's where Tipo comes in.. It's "simpler" with less tricksy in it... but more profit margin (since all the blingy stuff costs money).
I guess once 124 and Tipo are launched, Fiat *must* bring out a new Punto. That space will be harder and harder to ignore (and by then Fiat will have sufficient moolah to do it justice).
Ralf S.
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Fingers crossed!
The question is can they make enough money in a low margin sector with a car that isn't engineered to a similar standard to direct rivals to pay for better cars? Or will people prefer to buy a second hand golf or focus rather than a new fiat?
Well the idea of Tipo is precisely that. The Bravo had a wafer thin margin.. about £90 per car if I remember/read accurate information.
At the upper non-premium end of the sector cars "have" to have a lot of equipment and the equipment has to be sophisticated/be made of higher quality/more tactile materials just to be a contender.
You're then faced with achieving a competitive price point. VW were losing money on every Golf 5 (?) hence it was quickly replaced by a cheapened version 6... and Fiat's other perennial problem is that nobody buys Fiats in this segment. If Ford make £90 a car and sell a 500,000 cars that's less of a problem than for Fiat who might only sell 100,000.
The Tipo still has "equipment".. but it's ducked out of the Golf/Focus/Megane/Astra fight... because it simply won't sell, even if (like Bravo) it is just as good if not in many ways better.
Autocar panned Bravo for having blue stitching in the steering wheel.. which "would quickly get dirty"...
A Porsche Cayman in the same edition, with white stitching was obviously brilliant/didn't mention the stitching. Fiat won't win in this segment for a very long time. People just don't like it *enough*.Anyhoo... Tipo seems to have just the more basic stuff in it and a few "highlight" gadgets enough to make it not too shabby... simpler design, less parts, slightly more functional/less plush materials... It's 3 times more profitable per car than Bravo, even at a lower price.
There's a good prospect for it selling over a second-hander. In an "uncertain" economic climate people tend to be more cautious/less ostentatious... but they still want a new car if they can afford it. The likes of Kia, Skoda, Citroen etc.. have all proved it works.
Ralf S.
There's a good prospect for a new Tipo selling over a second-hander something else. In an "uncertain" economic climate people tend to be more cautious/less ostentatious... but they still want a new car if they can afford it. The likes of Kia, Skoda, Citroen etc.. have all proved it works in the past.
Ralf S.
Right but Skoda shares engineering costs with the rest VAG, Citroen with Peugeot (also if personal experience of our ds3 is a yardstick the cars they build are terrible..and they aren't financially in brilliant shape iirc before 2015 they made 5 years of consecutive losses) and Kia/Hyundai share costs and have pushed up market to a point where their cars are identically priced, they also have other businesses to draw money from building ships, making steel e.t.c. They also have ready access to a large home market protected by import duty on foreign cars..
Suppose Fiat could hit up Ferrari!
I do hope it works for them but they are pushing into a market where they have practically zero customer base having left it for so long since the bravo and they are doing it with a car that appears less advanced than the one it replaces was..
What they are building is an equivalent to a Skoda Rapid or a Seat Toledo, a bigger than golf sized car on a polo chassis. They popular with the minicabbers I suppose..guess it'll depend if they got burned on a dobbin.
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they've done this time and again in the UK,
but the actual cars that Could've done well never get here..
our 2004 panda was a bargain..as it was @ 6 years after the last of the OLD old model - no repeat customers it had to re-establish itself,
once it was back in the sales chart..the prices went UP@20%.
it was actually worth MORE at a year old than we paid for it..
TIPO = stylistically it's TOO BLAND,
could be any far eastern box..:yuck:
the Palio concept should've been the budget end of UK Fiat's
following on from the people who had great service in the UK's 1st proper supermini the Punto, the growing family.. just like Mini and 500 attempt now - 20 years on..:bang:
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