Technical 90mm dipped beam

[Norfolk N Good]

Hi all,
Apologies as I know this subject has been touched upon a few times, however I cannot locate anything specific but happy to be pointed in the right direction…

Have a 2006 (early model up to 2006) Fiat Ducato Rapido motorhome with 90mm Hella main and side lights (as one unit) and dipped on another unit, now I’ve had issues with the lights at night being what I’d class as suboptimal, someone walking in front with a candle could offer more light.

I first assumed it was due to corroded reflectors however the corroded reflectors are on the main beam and sidelight units. I look to replace these with Hella LED 90mm lights at some point in the near future, the dipped beam are in what look like xenon lamps but still taking a H7 bulb, this has been replaced with Osram night breaker bulbs but still shockingly poor light being emitted. I have attempted to remove the lens unit from the body but there seems to be a motor attached and for the life of me I can’t fathom out how to release this, there are some 5mm nuts attached but I can’t shift them, so assume I’m doing something wrong (access to two of them is near on impossible)
I have noticed the beam pattern is way off n/s beam is pointing at the pavement and the o/s beam to the middle of the road, however this has happily passed its MOT without any question and yes they checked the beam pattern.
I can only assume this is some kind of levelling motor or auto adjuster (my ford lights seem to scan the horizon each time I start the car, so wonder if this has a similar set up)
Any pointers as I’m sure this could not have left the factory like this.
I stopped at a motorhome place in the midlands somewhere, can’t remember exactly where and their useful advice was don’t drive in the dark arrive at a site by 3 pm and the problem goes away - I think they were serious…

 

[the green vanper]

Hello,

Can you post a photo of the light assembly on one side, please?

What you call 'look like xenon lamps' is a standard biconvex lens with a most probably steel reflector on the back. You've got 2 parts that affect how the bulb is projecting the light.

It's a 20 years old headlight. The front surface is oxidized + damaged by the sand and water. Both the front and the back side of the lens need cleaning and polishing. That's something that might be done at home. However the corroded steel reflector on the back is a job for a professionnal company. The part needs to be cleaned (probably soda blasted) and then sputtered (?). And then of course assembled in clean conditions.

It's a common type of headlights that has been used in the 2000's by many manufacturers. And they encounter the same problems everywhere. And require the same proces. The advantage is if done properly, it restores 100% of the new headlight efficiency

 

[Communicator]

Hi all,
Apologies as I know this subject has been touched upon a few times, however I cannot locate anything specific but happy to be pointed in the right direction…

Have a 2006 (early model up to 2006) Fiat Ducato Rapido motorhome with 90mm Hella main and side lights (as one unit) and dipped on another unit, now I’ve had issues with the lights at night being what I’d class as suboptimal, someone walking in front with a candle could offer more light.

I first assumed it was due to corroded reflectors however the corroded reflectors are on the main beam and sidelight units. I look to replace these with Hella LED 90mm lights at some point in the near future, the dipped beam are in what look like xenon lamps but still taking a H7 bulb, this has been replaced with Osram night breaker bulbs but still shockingly poor light being emitted. I have attempted to remove the lens unit from the body but there seems to be a motor attached and for the life of me I can’t fathom out how to release this, there are some 5mm nuts attached but I can’t shift them, so assume I’m doing something wrong (access to two of them is near on impossible)
I have noticed the beam pattern is way off n/s beam is pointing at the pavement and the o/s beam to the middle of the road, however this has happily passed its MOT without any question and yes they checked the beam pattern.
I can only assume this is some kind of levelling motor or auto adjuster (my ford lights seem to scan the horizon each time I start the car, so wonder if this has a similar set up)
Any pointers as I’m sure this could not have left the factory like this.
I stopped at a motorhome place in the midlands somewhere, can’t remember exactly where and their useful advice was don’t drive in the dark arrive at a site by 3 pm and the problem goes away - I think they were serious…

While I cannot see a specific statement from the OP, confirming that the vehicle in question is an "A" class, this would appear to be the case. The lighting system described bears no resemblance to the standard Fiat installation on my 2006 2.8jtd PVC. On an "A" class conversion the converter, Rapido in this instance, typically install their own choice of lighting units, for which Hella is a common choice. I have previously read reports of poor performance from the lighting units, on "A" class conversions.

 

[the green vanper]

While I cannot see a specific statement from the OP, confirming that the vehicle in question is an "A" class, this would appear to be the case. The lighting system described bears no resemblance to the standard Fiat installation on my 2006 2.8jtd PVC. On an "A" class conversion the converter, Rapido in this instance, typically install their own choice of lighting units, for which Hella is a common choice. I have previously read reports of poor performance from the lighting units, on "A" class conversions.

Looking at 2006 Rapido photos online I've found both. But the '90 mm' points towards the A class MH with 3 separate round lights - the indicator, the dipped and the main beam (looking from the outside). If the original efficiency was poor, the best would be to check if the mounting points are Hella's standard - if so, a swap to new Hella 90 mm LED lights should be possible. They are road homologated and used in buses (for example Solaris). However you should check the British regulations in this matter.

 

[The Panda Nut]

On the Panda 319 the lights are awful too. In this case its because the dip and main beams are poorly correlated with the dippped. When set right for MOT the mains are U/S, being far too high You can see birds roosting in tree tops but not the road. I find raising the whole light up, and checking to avoid dazzle by walking up the road has improved things. Its not easy to optimise, but worth the effort. I now also use +130 Bright bulbs which help a little. The brighter you go though the shorter the life and if one bulb blows it tends to spike the other which blows after wards so I only change a pair together and keep the second to use if it recurrs so there is a balanced pair in use. Thye used to do low level driving lights to supplement dip beams but I dont know if they are still available as an accessory.

 

[Norfolk N Good]

While I cannot see a specific statement from the OP, confirming that the vehicle in question is an "A" class, this would appear to be the case. The lighting system described bears no resemblance to the standard Fiat installation on my 2006 2.8jtd PVC. On an "A" class conversion the converter, Rapido in this instance, typically install their own choice of lighting units, for which Hella is a common choice. I have previously read reports of poor performance from the lighting units, on "A" class conversions.

Thank you Communicator,/ all,
Picture attached below for reference, for all whom are asking yes it’s an A class.
The bottom light of the three diagonal lights is the high beam and side light, these are heavily corroded on the reflector and these I shall change for LED.
The next up and left is dipped beam, this is absolutely shocking for light emission, that poor that I cannot see how it would ever be passed off as safe leaving the factory- I guess time has made a poor light even worse and as you say either needs professional cleaning or replacing.
Next up left is indicator (to me it’s obvious, but just clarifying)
Very bottom of bumper is fog light - albeit don’t seem to be working - I’m taking it in to the workshop on Friday so will take a better look then.
Now second picture (behind the light cluster from inside( for clarity I could not get to the same side so picture of rear of near side)) there’s another electrical component mounted to the rear of the light unit which I assume is a adjustment motor. Question being if this is, how does this work, is it auto adjusting, is this manual somehow is it up and down or side to side also?
The mounting brackets on the rear of these lights are Hella originals, however the newer Hella LED models have a supporting bracket with larger holes, something I’d need to reposition / drill out if I do indeed replace with LED lamps.

 

[Norfolk N Good]

Looking at 2006 Rapido photos online I've found both. But the '90 mm' points towards the A class MH with 3 separate round lights - the indicator, the dipped and the main beam (looking from the outside). If the original efficiency was poor, the best would be to check if the mounting points are Hella's standard - if so, a swap to new Hella 90 mm LED lights should be possible. They are road homologated and used in buses (for example Solaris). However you should check the British regulations in this matter.

Thank you Green Vanper,
Yes the LED replacements are ‘E’.stamped and therefore useable on UK roads. These are fitted to scania trucks, tractors, buses etc as you mention above, they are also 12v and 25v compatible. However the wiring would need modifying to a new plug mechanism.
My concern being if the originals have electronic adjusters, which I can’t fathom out how to get off to investigate, then I’m assuming the LEDs would also require an auto adjuster of some kind?
Or do I replace like for like and accept they are woefully suboptimal lighting units?

 

[Communicator]

Thank you Communicator,/ all,
Picture attached below for reference, for all whom are asking yes it’s an A class.
The bottom light of the three diagonal lights is the high beam and side light, these are heavily corroded on the reflector and these I shall change for LED.
The next up and left is dipped beam, this is absolutely shocking for light emission, that poor that I cannot see how it would ever be passed off as safe leaving the factory- I guess time has made a poor light even worse and as you say either needs professional cleaning or replacing.
Next up left is indicator (to me it’s obvious, but just clarifying)
Very bottom of bumper is fog light - albeit don’t seem to be working - I’m taking it in to the workshop on Friday so will take a better look then.
Now second picture (behind the light cluster from inside( for clarity I could not get to the same side so picture of rear of near side)) there’s another electrical component mounted to the rear of the light unit which I assume is a adjustment motor. Question being if this is, how does this work, is it auto adjusting, is this manual somehow is it up and down or side to side also?
The mounting brackets on the rear of these lights are Hella originals, however the newer Hella LED models have a supporting bracket with larger holes, something I’d need to reposition / drill out if I do indeed replace with LED lamps.The standard x244 Ducato headlamp adjuster is a servo motor system. The adjuster has a controlling thumb wheel on the dash, selecting positions. The adjustment is only on the vertical by, I think, tilting the reflector. Electrical diagram attached, but will most probably not be applicable, as Rapido may have adopted a different system, perhaps by tilting the whole lamp unit.

x244 Ducato fog lights require dipped beam to be on. Conversely switching the fog lamps on, switches the dipped beams off. My vehicle does not have fog lamps, and I have utilised location, and some of the wiring for DRLs,

Standard headlamp adjustment is via servo motors inside the headlamp units, which I think tilt the reflector. Adjustment is only in the vertical plane, and is effected manually via a four position thumb wheel on the dash, to the lower LHS of the instrument binnacle. Rapido may have adopted an entirely different system, which could be a Hella product.

 

[the green vanper]

Thank you Green Vanper,
Yes the LED replacements are ‘E’.stamped and therefore useable on UK roads. These are fitted to scania trucks, tractors, buses etc as you mention above, they are also 12v and 25v compatible. However the wiring would need modifying to a new plug mechanism.
My concern being if the originals have electronic adjusters, which I can’t fathom out how to get off to investigate, then I’m assuming the LEDs would also require an auto adjuster of some kind?
Or do I replace like for like and accept they are woefully suboptimal lighting units?

I assume you have some kind of pneumatic suspension on the back? If so, you can make the rear end sit at the same level every time being on a public road - it will keep the light beam on the same level, too however I don't know British regulations in this matter (for example xenons need to have auto-levelling in the EU).

 

[Norfolk N Good]

I assume you have some kind of pneumatic suspension on the back? If so, you can make the rear end sit at the same level every time being on a public road - it will keep the light beam on the same level, too however I don't know British regulations in this matter (for example xenons need to have auto-levelling in the EU).

Unfortunately not, standard leaf springs if I recall correctly. I do believe xenon’s require auto-levelling in the UK as have them on my ford.
I am hoping to install air suspension in the not too distant future but not sure how easy that’ll be on the alko chassis.

 

[Norfolk N Good]

x244 Ducato fog lights require dipped beam to be on. Conversely switching the fog lamps on, switches the dipped beams off. My vehicle does not have fog lamps, and I have utilised location, and some of the wiring for DRLs,

Standard headlamp adjustment is via servo motors inside the headlamp units, which I think tilt the reflector. Adjustment is only in the vertical plane, and is effected manually via a four position thumb wheel on the dash, to the lower LHS of the instrument binnacle. Rapido may have adopted an entirely different system, which could be a Hella product.

I’ll take a look on Friday when playing in the workshop, I don’t recall anything on the dash to adjust but to be honest I don’t recall looking for one either, maybe that’s part of my problem, it’s tucked up behind the dash somewhere from original but I’m guessing.
Now the LED lights I have purchased do have DRLs as part of the light unit as well as side lights, dipped and indicators, so toying with wiring up DRLs off ignition sense via a relay, that then go off when dipped beam turned on (don’t know if that is necessarily a requirement)

 

[Communicator]

I’ll take a look on Friday when playing in the workshop, I don’t recall anything on the dash to adjust but to be honest I don’t recall looking for one either, maybe that’s part of my problem, it’s tucked up behind the dash somewhere from original but I’m guessing.
Now the LED lights I have purchased do have DRLs as part of the light unit as well as side lights, dipped and indicators, so toying with wiring up DRLs off ignition sense via a relay, that then go off when dipped beam turned on (don’t know if that is necessarily a requirement)

My DRLs are very bright, presumably so as to be visible in sunlight. I would not like them to be illuminated when other lights were in use.

As you will appreciate the relay coil needs to be supplied from an IGN + point and grounded to a lighting circuit. I chose touse the sidelights for this pupose, but found out later that I needed a blocking diode to prevent energising the relay in reverse when parking lights selected.

The logical supply point for a DRL relay is fuse F31 which feeds ignition ON relays. As you do not have headlamp washers you could plug a suitable blade into terminal 86 of relay T25 in the LHS cab fusebox. See attached diagram.

 

[Robotstar4]

<snip>
As you will appreciate the relay coil needs to be supplied from an IGN + point and grounded to a lighting circuit. I chose touse the sidelights for this pupose, but found out later that I needed a blocking diode to prevent energising the relay in reverse when parking lights selected.

Just be glad it's not Japanese, I've had Nissan & Suzuki cars that use negative (ground) switching on the lights!