Technical 2008 Ducato 2.2 100bhp Idle erratic when cold

[Andy 418]

I have done that. Everytime I have taken it in I leave it over night so they can test it from cold.
Over last few days it has been ok. Can fuel temperature be an issue as it has been warmer last few days? or quality of fuel as I have stopped running it on morrisons fuel and started using shell instead.

 

[corkman]

I have done that. Everytime I have taken it in I leave it over night so they can test it from cold.
Over last few days it has been ok. Can fuel temperature be an issue as it has been warmer last few days? or quality of fuel as I have stopped running it on morrisons fuel and started using shell instead.

Diesel has problems with waxing at low temperatures, proper oil suppliers will supply a fuel appropriate to the season but I have had waxy diesel in winter at budget or out of the way suppliers in the past god knows where they get it from. Probably somewhere like this.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...illegal-fuel-laundering-factory-14704112.html

Aren't morrissons using 8% bio in their 'regular' diesel. Not recommended for common rail.

There is an awful lot of anecdotal stuff about supermarket fuel might be worth opening the drain on the filter and letting the run off sit in a glass to see what it looks like.

Oh I should add andy that I recently came accross a user friendly free software that looks like it supports ducato, with a cheap cable from ebay you should be able to check sensors and reset errors for under a tenner. I haven't used it personally as I have higher end solutions but it seems to be fairly popular.

http://www.fiatecuscan.net/HowToUse.aspx

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-409-1-KKL-VAG-COM-OBD-2-II-VW-AUDI-SKODA-SEAT-Cable_W0QQitemZ190329451002QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment?hash=item2c5084f1fa

 

[Andy 418]

Thanks for that corkman.
Yes morrisons do have 7 or 8% bio diesel in there fuel I noticed it in small writing other month where the nozzle goes. That's why I swapped to shell when I saw it. I wondered if that's why I was getting trouble. Reports on Internet don't give morrisons fuel that good rating either.
I found out bio diesel is slightly heavier than diesel too and my tank hasn't been under half full for 6 months and van has been stood around a lot which made me wonder if fuel had seperated in tank and bio diesel was all in bottom half of tank where feed pipe is.
I will see how it runs over next few weeks and if problem persists I'll look at purchasing that reader off eBay.

 

[Andy 418]

The problem is still here. If i start van up from cold and leave it ticking over the engine is dipping up and down but not showing on rev counter but if i start it up and drive away it seems to tickover fine when you pull up. But if ive been out and its reached operating temp then left it for an hour or two it just has rough idle till it reaches operating temp again. It runs fine once normal operating temperature is reached but doesnt do the uneven idle all time when it is cold although its starting to do it more regular now. Could it be a faulty temp sensor? or lambda sensor? any information please. Why would it be ok till 16000 then start doing it and no one knows whats wrong.
Im sick of taking it to fiat and they are saying everything is doing what it should, no faults are coming up. They are now telling me its normal for these engines to do it, which i dont believe for 1 minute it never did it upto 16000 miles and still doing it at 19000 miles after having a new egr valve ane map update.
Can anyone help, trouble is warranty is out in 3 weeks and i want it sorting before it does.

 

[corkman]

Hi Andy,

I just checked fiat eper and your van uses an unusual visteon ecu so its not supported byt the software and cable I linked to. If the error is momentary then might not be logged but I imagine it will still show up on the graph. The fiat stealers should be able to run a graph of cam, o2 temperature etc. and see the fault. Again as the visteon ecu is unusual maybe there are more limited facilities in fiat examiner.

Either way the technology has advanced dramatically in the past 20 years and the average mechanic can't keep up. A lot of main dealership people only know how to do what the computer says and in your case "Computer says no ..."

Just out of interest there are mentions on digital kaos about wiring damage:

"most Ducato have problems with the wiring under the left front light. take off the lamp and check wires all the way from fusebox to engine ECU"

Might be worth checking there.

Also check for water ingress in the fusebox and ecu. See fubar70 posts:
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/223106-2007-160-multijet-wont-turn-off-fan-stays.html

 

[corkman]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-OBD-II-EL...iagnostic_Tools_Equipment?hash=item20b0223139

Don't mind the ford focus bit this will allow you to read the sensor data to graph it easyobd 2.3 which is free should do it.

http://easyobdii.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=13

 

[Andy 418]

Thanks for that. I will give the fusebox a check. It makes me wonder because I have had the water in diesel filter light come on two times over last few weeks for no reason (drained filter into jar and left to see if any water present but none there and had new filter other month) and on three occasions now and always on a long journey for 200-300 miles+ I have pulled into services before left the van for 10 minutes then when I come back it wont start. Immobilser light stays on, so I have to disconnect the battery and reconnect it then it starts. Its only ever done it on long runs and its funny how its done it all over winter period when its been wet all time.
Ill check it out later and see if this is my problem. If it is I shall get a new fusebox on before warranty runs out.
It obviously looks like a common problem on these vehicles and fiat not looking very willing to rectify the problems. I do get a lot of damp under bonnet. Opened bonnet other day and everywhere looked damp. I notice all brackets etc are starting to rust already on a van 2 year old. Cant see fiat wanting to sort them out having enough trouble with them over paintwork issues on van and wont repair them.
Ill keep you posted on any news.
Cheers for all the help everyone.

 

[Andy 418]

Ive taken off fuse box and looked inside. No signs of water ingress anywhere its still like brand new inside no tarnishing or anything. All wiring harnesses show no signs of water to ecu at all. I have noticed few times get water sitting around injector on top of engine block. Could this be causing any problems? Obviously im getting water ingress in usual places although when its rained and ive looked under bonnet no real signs of bad water leaks anywhere.
The problem has always seemed worse the colder it is. I know T14086 said ford were fitting bucket loads of temp sensors to the transit engines which is the same engine. Would there be any way of telling i.e temp gauge fluxuating etc? or should fiat be picking it up on reader?

 

[corkman]

Ive taken off fuse box and looked inside. No signs of water ingress anywhere its still like brand new inside no tarnishing or anything. All wiring harnesses show no signs of water to ecu at all. I have noticed few times get water sitting around injector on top of engine block. Could this be causing any problems? Obviously im getting water ingress in usual places although when its rained and ive looked under bonnet no real signs of bad water leaks anywhere.
The problem has always seemed worse the colder it is. I know T14086 said ford were fitting bucket loads of temp sensors to the transit engines which is the same engine. Would there be any way of telling i.e temp gauge fluxuating etc? or should fiat be picking it up on reader?

There is a temperature control on the denso high pressure pump, a temperature sensor on the thermostat housing and I think a block temperature sender. T14086 will know best which one to check.

Since your warranty is out in three weeks I really believe you should invest in a cable and software it will pay or itself in one use in terms of the time it takes you to drop you van to the dealer and collect it.

 

[Andy 418]

I started it this morning after been stood for four days and it was really rough on idle. Drove 10 miles, got to normal operating temp and pulled up and still would not idle right. So went into shop was 15 mins came out and started up and ticking over fine straight away. Is something sticking?

 

[Andy 418]

Van is going back in to fiat on Tuesday and they have got to go through all readings with technical at fiat head office.
I have found though that it will not idle even either at all at any engine temp when air conditioning is turned on due to my discovery today in warm weather. So at least I can replicate the problem all the time now.

 

[Andy 418]

Well took into dealer and showed them idle problem. They plugged in diagnostic and said it come up with egr system fault so have fitted a new egr valve again. Last time they put one on it made no difference but this time seems a lot better but has not cured it fully. It still has it's moments of up and down but no where as bad as it did. Which is a bit worrying if it is the egr valve that's the problem as they are not proving to be a very reliable valve and if it has to be replaced every 8000 miles not very good on fiats behalf for reliability.
Also I had quick look round egr system earlier and notice there is a sensor on pulley side of engine at front. It's a plastic body which goes into the inlet manifold and has egr pipe to it with a large rubber hose on it I'm assuming either crank breather or from intercooler. In that body there is a sensor which I removed and had a quick look. It was covered solid in oil and carbon deposits so I cleaned it all off and removed the body and cleaned all that out too. I couldn't believe how much build up was in there. When I cleaned the sensor up I eventually found a glass type bulb in there. What is this sensor for? I'll be suprised if it's been sensing anything at all. I'm assuming this is part of egr system too so could this be causing part of problem. If it has a important role that is. Can anyone tell me what the sensor is for?

 

[Andy 418]

I'm going to fit it back on in morning and see if it has cured problem. Will keep you informed.

 

[Andy 418]

Just to keep everyone informed who has messaged me with the same problem as me. After numerous calls to fiat and the dealer hopefully this problem is rectified when i get it back tomorrow, only been there 5 weeks.
Fiat have agreed to fit a brand new egr valve apparantly revised one instead of the reconditioned ones that they usually fit on warranty claims. No wonder they last 2 minutes. Along with some other instructions given to my dealer from fiat technical to carry out and they are pretty confident this will cure the problem. Will hopefully see if eveything is fine tomorrow.

 

[ponsaloti]

This valve gives big problems on the Diesel Ford Mondeo. Take a look at the mondeo sites.
Your and my van use the same Ford engine. Ford are well aware of this problem.
good luck.

 

[John C S]

This valve gives big problems on the Diesel Ford Mondeo. Take a look at the mondeo sites.

And also the FWD Ford Transits. Same engine!

 

[Andy 418]

Yes I was aware it's the ford engine and some transits we have at work do the same thing.
Picked can up today and is running perfect. For how long who knows. They said technical advised them to clean out the fuel pressure valve too not sure why. It's obviously a poor egr design and not very reliable. Wonder if ford are trying to rectify the problem or just willing to let me get a new egr valve every 15000 miles.

 

[John C S]

A few runs with a harder right foot should help keep the soot levels down slightly!

Ford are not the only company with EGR valve issues. Vauxhalls CDTi 150 1.9 engine can be a bit of a swine for them as well.

A small straw poll seems to say that if the car does motorway miles, it's less likely to suffer.!

 

[Andy 418]

Well van run well for one day and now back to same. Won't idle smooth at all keeps dipping again all time. Back to battiling it out again with fiat. Can you just put a blanking plate in? I'm assuming it will turn warning light on.

 

[fubar70]

Hi
Your idle speed is controlled by ecu via the injector flow rate, you should be able to see this straight away with examiner. Also do a injector leak off test you may have a faulty injector.
Good Luck.