Technical 14W50 oil for tuned 650

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Technical 14W50 oil for tuned 650

gordinir8

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So I am using cheap 20W50 Castrol mineral oil and somehow I want to upgrade it to a better quality, I'm not sure if special 20W50 for classic cars makes any difference or it's just overpriced so looking further I was advised to use racing 20W60 or 15W50 synthetic oil and I was thinking to go for Liqui Molly 15W50. 20W60 cost around 30 euros per litre so no thanks. What do you guys think! Remember I live in hot climate and little cat is on steroids.
Thomas
 
So I am using cheap 20W50 Castrol mineral oil and somehow I want to upgrade it to a better quality, I'm not sure if special 20W50 for classic cars makes any difference or it's just overpriced so looking further I was advised to use racing 20W60 or 15W50 synthetic oil and I was thinking to go for Liqui Molly 15W50. 20W60 cost around 30 euros per litre so no thanks. What do you guys think! Remember I live in hot climate and little cat is on steroids.
Thomas

So I am using cheap 20W50 Castrol mineral oil and somehow I want to upgrade it to a better quality, I'm not sure if special 20W50 for classic cars makes any difference or it's just overpriced so looking further I was advised to use racing 20W60 or 15W50 synthetic oil and I was thinking to go for Liqui Molly 15W50. 20W60 cost around 30 euros per litre so no thanks. What do you guys think! Remember I live in hot climate and little cat is on steroids.
Thomas
I use a very good quality 10/50 (semi-competition) oil in my tuned '126'engine, and have had no problems with it. I will however concede that you 'enjoy' hotter temperatures, so yes, a 15/50 might be a better choice.
 
If i can hijack this topic a bit.

Kroon oil (oil brand) recommend 10w30 for temperate regions (netherlands i suppose) for the 650 from the 126, to me this feels a bit odd as its as thin as most modern engines use, yet i still bought 3L of it. Im thinking i might just use it, and if it burns to much oil or has pressure issues, switch up to 15w40 and later perhaps 20x50

any thoughts? is trying 10w30 a bad idea?
 
If i can hijack this topic a bit.

Kroon oil (oil brand) recommend 10w30 for temperate regions (netherlands i suppose) for the 650 from the 126, to me this feels a bit odd as its as thin as most modern engines use, yet i still bought 3L of it. Im thinking i might just use it, and if it burns to much oil or has pressure issues, switch up to 15w40 and later perhaps 20x50

any thoughts? is trying 10w30 a bad idea?
I think 10w30 is very thin but since you have it maybe you can mix it with the thicker one like 2:1 or less until you finish it. 15w40 for your case sounds better.
 
I think 10w30 is very thin but since you have it maybe you can mix it with the thicker one like 2:1 or less until you finish it. 15w40 for your case sounds better.
That also sounds very strange to me! I appreciate that oil quality and performance has improved massively over the last few years, but the recommendation for the '126' engine is a 15/40---so yes. a 10/30 sounds somewhat thin
 
That also sounds very strange to me! I appreciate that oil quality and performance has improved massively over the last few years, but the recommendation for the '126' engine is a 15/40---so yes. a 10/30 sounds somewhat thin
yeah, it is a specific "classic" oil, targeted at old timers, but im still a bit hesitant...

Perhaps ill mix some 20w50 and 10w30, or just get some 10w40 or whatever....
 
yeah, it is a specific "classic" oil, targeted at old timers, but im still a bit hesitant...

Perhaps ill mix some 20w50 and 10w30, or just get some 10w40 or whatever....
Just to advise you---mixing different viscosity oils does NOT give you an oil "in-between"! Personally, I would look for a high quality 10/50 oil. Remember, oil is the life-blood of an engine, and even expensive oil is a LOT cheaper than a 'goosed' engine!
 
Hi Thomas, my little Cat is on steroids too and I have always used Mobil 1 10w 60 it's a racing oil for older cars. Never had a problem in any temperature.
Ian.
I used that for a while but now buy the cheaper and more easily obtainable Mobil 1, 4T Racing 15W50. I've said this before; being designed for motorcycle engines with wet clutches, it has more of the traditional, slippery lubricant additives and omits the modern compounds that replaced them.
 
On this subject, any feelings on synth, semi-synth or mineral? The most available 15w40 oils here are mineral

(And tbh, i dont have any clue anymore, ive seen people use and recommend anything short of 5w30 and gearbox oil for these engines now)
 
On this subject, any feelings on synth, semi-synth or mineral? The most available 15w40 oils here are mineral

(And tbh, i dont have any clue anymore, ive seen people use and recommend anything short of 5w30 and gearbox oil for these engines now)
I was advised many years ago that ALL oil, whether it is 'synthetic' or 'mineral' starts as "the black stuff in the ground". Modern 'synthetic' oil is so much better than 'old fashioned oil' that a classic competition engine can expect to gain up to 10% in power purely by going to a modern 'competition' oil. What make of oil can you obtain in The Netherlands? can you get Castrol, Morris, Valvoline? Let us know and we can then guide you in the right direction.
 
I was advised many years ago that ALL oil, whether it is 'synthetic' or 'mineral' starts as "the black stuff in the ground". Modern 'synthetic' oil is so much better than 'old fashioned oil' that a classic competition engine can expect to gain up to 10% in power purely by going to a modern 'competition' oil. What make of oil can you obtain in The Netherlands? can you get Castrol, Morris, Valvoline? Let us know and we can then guide you in the right direction.
Valvoline, some store brands for the less exotic stuff, Kroon, Castrol, Liquimoli, eurol are some brands i can find easily.

From what im thinking, i wont be running it a lot in the winter, if at all, so oil performance below 10-ish degrees (celcius) isnt that important. summers are getting hotter here, so itll be in 25-30 degs c ambient quite often when running it i suppose. Its also a 126 engine in a 500, with a stock sump. Induction/ignition look stock, and the exhaust might be a bit of a shed-job, so im not expecting a hot cam or worked on head. Nevertheless, itll be on the hotter side in there, so 15-40 or 20w50 (higher means less thinning in cold/hot state respectively from what i can find) makes sense i suppose, and from your post, some good quality synthetic might be the thing to go for.

on 20w50 looking at the regular webshop i'd end up with something like Eurol surpreme classic (mineral from what i can see), 15w40 Castrol GTX looks interesting

15w50 is a bit niche, but still has Kroon classic and liquimoli options
 
Valvoline, some store brands for the less exotic stuff, Kroon, Castrol, Liquimoli, eurol are some brands i can find easily.

From what im thinking, i wont be running it a lot in the winter, if at all, so oil performance below 10-ish degrees (celcius) isnt that important. summers are getting hotter here, so itll be in 25-30 degs c ambient quite often when running it i suppose. Its also a 126 engine in a 500, with a stock sump. Induction/ignition look stock, and the exhaust might be a bit of a shed-job, so im not expecting a hot cam or worked on head. Nevertheless, itll be on the hotter side in there, so 15-40 or 20w50 (higher means less thinning in cold/hot state respectively from what i can find) makes sense i suppose, and from your post, some good quality synthetic might be the thing to go for.

on 20w50 looking at the regular webshop i'd end up with something like Eurol surpreme classic (mineral from what i can see), 15w40 Castrol GTX looks interesting

15w50 is a bit niche, but still has Kroon classic and liquimoli options
Castrol do a 10/50 high performance oil, as do Valvoline. If you have a car accesory shop nearby, they should be able to supply these oils. If you get the opportunity, try and fit one of the aluminium 3-1/2 litre sumps---they definately help the engine to run cooler (more oil in sump). You won't need to change the dipstick--just use the original/standard dipstick.
If you DO fit the 3-1/2 litre sump, use a Rubberoid gasket (NOT the cork variety) or a high-quality gasket 'goo'. Youwillalso need 20mm screws as the original will be too short, but still use the Factory 'sprung' washers.
 
yeah, a 3.5L alu sump is deffinitely on the cards for later on, i also plan on getting exhaust wrap on the pipes from the head to the muffler, keep as much heat out of the engine bay and all.

Those are plans for later on though, it has been sat for 4 years, so just swapped the rear brake cylinders, have a pair of driveshaft boots to put on, and am currently struggling with the gearbox fill plug, it is some weird non standard thing (sliiiightly bigger then a 1/2" socket drive) and my 500 Nm impact has only succeeded in rounding the top of it off a bit.

Just took it for a 5 mile testrun, brakes take a bit long to engage, handbrake is useless, indicators arent home, alignment feels a tad sketchy, but the engine runs smoothly and its tons of fun, like a go-kart for big boys :p
 
yeah, a 3.5L alu sump is deffinitely on the cards for later on, i also plan on getting exhaust wrap on the pipes from the head to the muffler, keep as much heat out of the engine bay and all.

Those are plans for later on though, it has been sat for 4 years, so just swapped the rear brake cylinders, have a pair of driveshaft boots to put on, and am currently struggling with the gearbox fill plug, it is some weird non standard thing (sliiiightly bigger then a 1/2" socket drive) and my 500 Nm impact has only succeeded in rounding the top of it off a bit.

Just took it for a 5 mile testrun, brakes take a bit long to engage, handbrake is useless, indicators arent home, alignment feels a tad sketchy, but the engine runs smoothly and its tons of fun, like a go-kart for big boys :p
Yes, the gearboxlevel/re-fillplug can be a bugger to undo. I have found the best way is to use a short 1/2in drive extension THE WRONG WAY ROUND (i.e put the 'female' over the plug) and then use a suitable socket and bar on the 'male' end of the extension. If your gearbox needs oil, the location of the plug makes it difficult to refill---the answer is to get a length of clear plastic tubing, small enough to just go into the 'level-plug-hole' and long enough to come up into the engine bay. Put a small funnel into the end of the tube in the engine bay and fill the gearbox through the tube. When oil starts coming back out of the level-plug hole, the gearbox oil level is correct. If you have a 126 gearbox in your car, a good quality 20/50 oil can be used
 
@the hobbler yeah, i managed to get it out by taking a 12mm hex socket, grinding out the 1/2" square a tiny bit and then hammering it onto the sump plug. Then my 12mm alan socket on the impact gun did the trick. The 12mm alan is for sump plugs and i couldnt remember when i used the 12mm hex the last time :p

I put some 90w recommended gearbox oil in, and found out my other driveshaft boot needs to be changed too. I might do that tonight, but right now temperatures arent very conducive to wrenching in my flat-roofed non airconditioned garage :/
 
I was about to chance to motul v300 but on a second thought I found it expensive so I put the same dead cheap 20W50 castor oil I am using, after about 20-30 kilometres the oil cooler feed hose went loose (I have two special hose clamps per union) and lost all the oil on the street except maybe some last drops before pump dried and got the press light on which didn't happened so I guess little engine is ok. Also a 1.5km ecology oil line in the streets of Athens reminds me how cool is to drive a classic... So this time going to switch on Castrol gtx 15W40 and let racing oil on the side for now.
 
I was about to chance to motul v300 but on a second thought I found it expensive so I put the same dead cheap 20W50 castor oil I am using, after about 20-30 kilometres the oil cooler feed hose went loose (I have two special hose clamps per union) and lost all the oil on the street except maybe some last drops before pump dried and got the press light on which didn't happened so I guess little engine is ok. Also a 1.5km ecology oil line in the streets of Athens reminds me how cool is to drive a classic... So this time going to switch on Castrol gtx 15W40 and let racing oil on the side for now.
You probably all ready know but caster and mineral oils don't mix, so a good flush and maybe some more advice from someone more clued up than me, as my knowledge was related to racing karts in the early1970s when using Castrol R oil.;)
 
One thing to keep in mind. Modern "fancy" oils typically dont have the zinc protection of a oil designed for a "classic" car specifically. What do i mean about this over the years, modern oils have gone away from zinc as the high pressure wear additive, and unfortunately modern oils still do not give the protection that flat tappet cams neat (our cars included).

Now you might ask why zinc was eliminated?. Simply "catalytic converters", as cats have become popular in all cars starting in the 80, with their performance and longevity improving over the years, they have become super sensitive to specific chemical exposures. Zinc being one of them, zinc in the oil can "poison" a catalytic converter and destroy them. Thus oil manufactures have cut down or completely remove zinc as one of the major wear additives in modern oils; that is unless you buy an oil specific for classic/high zinc use. Unfortunately like i mentioned above, the replacement wear additives have yet to meet the wear performance that zinc provided, with that said modern engines are designed with different geometry/contact faces especially on the high pressure contact points on the camshaft/lifters that modern low/no zinc oils perform properly.

Just run a regular quality 20/50 oil (the 2nd number is the most important as that's the at temp operating viscosity spec), and just add a zinc additive to the oil and you should be good to go.

Our cars have flat tappet cams, and they need high zinc oils to survive. I really wish there was a way to run roller lifters in our cars ;)



As far as oil pressure goes. Ive installed a pressure and temp sender in my car and have been observing temp/pressure with castrol gtx 20/50 oil. on start up, the car gets darn near instant 65+psi of pressure (seems to be what the factory pressure relief is). and with oil temps in the 100c on a hot summer day, running pressure is around 50psi, with idle pressure being at around 15-20psi at full operating temp. So high temp viscosity is important.

Now, at the store this year, i found castrol synthetic 5w-50.. I might give that a try next year along with adding a zinc additive. And see what pressures are like. Because there might be the odd chance i have to start and move the car on a super cold day, the lower "cold" viscosity rating might be useful. I will see.
 
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One thing to keep in mind. Modern "fancy" oils typically dont have the zinc protection of a oil designed for a "classic" car specifically. What do i mean about this over the years, modern oils have gone away from zinc as the high pressure wear additive, and unfortunately modern oils still do not give the protection that flat tappet cams neat (our cars included).

Now you might ask why zinc was eliminated?. Simply "catalytic converters", as cats have become popular in all cars starting in the 80, with their performance and longevity improving over the years, they have become super sensitive to specific chemical exposures. Zinc being one of them, zinc in the oil can "poison" a catalytic converter and destroy them. Thus oil manufactures have cut down or completely remove zinc as one of the major wear additives in modern oils; that is unless you buy an oil specific for classic/high zinc use. Unfortunately like i mentioned above, the replacement wear additives have yet to meet the wear performance that zinc provided, with that said modern engines are designed with different geometry/contact faces especially on the high pressure contact points on the camshaft/lifters that modern low/no zinc oils perform properly.

Just run a regular quality 20/50 oil (the 2nd number is the most important as that's the at temp operating viscosity spec), and just add a zinc additive to the oil and you should be good to go.

Our cars have flat tappet cams, and they need high zinc oils to survive. I really wish there was a way to run roller lifters in our cars ;)



As far as oil pressure goes. Ive installed a pressure and temp sender in my car and have been observing temp/pressure with 20/50 oil. on start up, the car gets darn near instant 65+psi of pressure (seems to be what the factory pressure relief is). and with oil temps in the 100c on a hot summer day, running pressure is around 50psi, with idle pressure being at around 15-20psi at full operating temp. So high temp viscosity is important.

Look at the nice, high zinc and phosphorus content and good viscosity ranges here. I suspect that many manufacturers market similar 4T motorcycle oils. The intention is not to mess up the wet-clutch with slippery compounds that substitute for zinc in modern oils; our cars benefit from that for a different reason. There may even be a few 500s with "wet" clutches that might get an additional benefit from using this stuff. ;)

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