excellent progress Aran, manufacturing the manifold shouldn't take you too long with the set up you have at work i would have thought.
Tuning 1368cc 16v - Classic Panda 100HP
- Thread starter lewey
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Tuning 1368cc 16v - Classic Panda 100HP
excellent progress Aran, manufacturing the manifold shouldn't take you too long with the set up you have at work i would have thought.
Xsisley
Member
hopefully it will all be sorted
and i will put some pics up.. : )
think i might alu plate my sump gaurd too. hmm
aran
and i will put some pics up.. : )
think i might alu plate my sump gaurd too. hmm
aran
OP
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Proper scrapheap challenge pace! Testiment to how good to work with these cars and engines are.
I am connecting the fuel system at the moment. I have got the 3.5bar pump in the assembly and in the tank now (see photo). I hadn't noticed before, but the injector rail is returnless. Never come accross an injection system that doesn't return to the tank. Assume I should just block up the return on the Panda then? No adverse effects of doing this? Planning on using the existing Panda charcoal canister connected to the purge valve on the 16v manifold. I assume I will have to modify the canister so that the old valves are removed. Is it OK to have the purge valve so far away from the canister?
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Yes, it really was an odd combination of engine, turbo and box that!Y10 Turbo used a FIRE gearbox with revised ratios and a different bellhousing...
Sorry, well outside my comfort zone here!
The purge valve was/is mounted on the suspension tower, I see no problem with the distance.
cheers Damon
Firstly, people talk of 3Bar fuel pumps, a fuel pump is rated to a Max pressure and L/per hour, the fuel pressure regulator is what controls pressure on a return system.
Most modern cars use a returnless system now, even the Seicento MPi models have it, which in our case proved to be an easy swap as the fuel pump and fuel rail etc were all up to the job and in case of fuel rail interchangeable. Yes you will have to do away with the return system, and find a way of connecting the purge.
Most modern cars use a returnless system now, even the Seicento MPi models have it, which in our case proved to be an easy swap as the fuel pump and fuel rail etc were all up to the job and in case of fuel rail interchangeable. Yes you will have to do away with the return system, and find a way of connecting the purge.
Xsisley
Member
ye im still in shock !!
1 and a half days work. from jaking up to driving away.!
and thats working on my own !
didnt manage to borrow an engine hoist, and stuff gets heavy with the box on there too !
to i used a lump of wood across the bonnet 2 loops of rope and car jacks on the wood with rope over them !! dodgy !
and that time includes making an exhaust spacer on the laithe!
all good.
i now actually just see a panda when i see a 16v 1242 or 1368 punto/bravo.
also i saw a fiat something ! bravo ?? which was 1.6 16v !!?
what engines this ? will she fit ??
again, GREAT topic !
aran.
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Thanks for the info. You're right about the 3bar pump non-sense. It is just me being lazy! When I am talking on another forum about my Westfield race car it is always about rate of delivery to feed very hungry carbs or throttle bodies. Others talk about 3bar pumps and I lazily re-hash it here- thanks for pulling me up on this!
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They are not a straight fit like the 1368, 1242 and 1108 because they are not FIRE based engines. They would not mate with a panda box. OF course, any engine can be made to fit..
The 1368 FIRE makes almost as much power as the 1.6 16v anyway and is quite a bit lighter.
Bravos and Bravas were never fitted with FIRE engines.
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Yes, you are right- I should stick to what I know. The later 1999 onwards cars did have the 1242 16v it would seem. The 1368 engine wasn't in production when the car stopped production in 2001, so pretty sure that wasn't in them at least!I thought they could be had with the 1242 and 1368 16 valve FIRE engines?
right you will neeed to know this info!!!! very important!!!!
the single line fuel rail with no return has a pressure regulator at the tank end!!! think of the fuel rail being in the tank with a 't' off which then continues up to the engine
we have done conversions at work from double line to single line, all we do is fit a fse power boost valve at the engine end, thus putting the pressure regulator at the bonnet end again and is a cheap way of doing it, also allows you to up the fuel pressure if ya feel the need, we use factory specs for no issues, only upping fuel pressure if the mapping requires it!!
i will draw you a pic if you like of how both are if the above does not suffice!
3 bar fuel pumps are important if you only have a 2.5 bar one with innadequate flow rate for three bar usage, we have only ever had to change one fuel pump at work and that was on instruction of the rolling road operator, it was on a golf mk2 which we put a audi S3 engine in and it did need the bigger pump!!! it also needed bigger injectors as they were on full duty pulling 270 bhp!
the single line fuel rail with no return has a pressure regulator at the tank end!!! think of the fuel rail being in the tank with a 't' off which then continues up to the engine
we have done conversions at work from double line to single line, all we do is fit a fse power boost valve at the engine end, thus putting the pressure regulator at the bonnet end again and is a cheap way of doing it, also allows you to up the fuel pressure if ya feel the need, we use factory specs for no issues, only upping fuel pressure if the mapping requires it!!
i will draw you a pic if you like of how both are if the above does not suffice!
3 bar fuel pumps are important if you only have a 2.5 bar one with innadequate flow rate for three bar usage, we have only ever had to change one fuel pump at work and that was on instruction of the rolling road operator, it was on a golf mk2 which we put a audi S3 engine in and it did need the bigger pump!!!
it also needed bigger injectors as they were on full duty pulling 270 bhp!
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This is useful information, no-one has mentioned this yet. Could you tell me exactly where the regulator is in the Punto? I have the engine installed in the Panda and it is running without at the moment- don't want to knacker anything.
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Re: Progress
Engine is in. Used a combination of cinquecento sporting and selecta mounts for the transmission. The rear required quite a bit of customisation and will need to be re-made now I know what is required! The 1108cc Selecta engine has a large bore exhaust identical to the Punto that the engine came out of, so have used the whole system until it reaches the Punto manifold where it is chopped and a sleeve connects it to the foot or so coming off the flexi of the Punto system. Driveshafts are cinquecento including the 'cups' into the box. The CV joints at hub end are Panda- they just go straight on. Punto fuse box is mounted on bulkhead, still plan to use airbox and fan system although spare under bonnet isn't going to happen.
Clearance is tight in some places. Radiator is now fixed straight to the front panel and I had to grind a little off the exhaust manifold which made me nervous as it is difficult to know how thick or when it will suddenly go hollow!
Engine is starting and running, but I won't be going anywhere until I sort out the clutch and gear change. I thought late Panda gear stick would do, but it seems they weren't double cable until far too late for british Pandas. Current plan is Cinquecento sporting for both, so am looking to buy a knackered complete car because scrappies want so much for those parts and I'm not sure what else I might need.
Engine is in. Used a combination of cinquecento sporting and selecta mounts for the transmission. The rear required quite a bit of customisation and will need to be re-made now I know what is required! The 1108cc Selecta engine has a large bore exhaust identical to the Punto that the engine came out of, so have used the whole system until it reaches the Punto manifold where it is chopped and a sleeve connects it to the foot or so coming off the flexi of the Punto system. Driveshafts are cinquecento including the 'cups' into the box. The CV joints at hub end are Panda- they just go straight on. Punto fuse box is mounted on bulkhead, still plan to use airbox and fan system although spare under bonnet isn't going to happen.
Clearance is tight in some places. Radiator is now fixed straight to the front panel and I had to grind a little off the exhaust manifold which made me nervous as it is difficult to know how thick or when it will suddenly go hollow!
Engine is starting and running, but I won't be going anywhere until I sort out the clutch and gear change. I thought late Panda gear stick would do, but it seems they weren't double cable until far too late for british Pandas. Current plan is Cinquecento sporting for both, so am looking to buy a knackered complete car because scrappies want so much for those parts and I'm not sure what else I might need.
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Yep. The 1.2 was a 16v Fire but the 1.4 was a 12v unit which has a pretty terrible reputation.
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Having had another look at the Punto pump assembly, it is quite obvious where the regualtor is. I thought it was a filter of some sort and the system was therefore an electronic type returnless system with no regulator. Will consider an under bonnet regulator then utilising the existing return, unless I can some how retro fit the Punto one into the tank. High pressure fuel regulators seem expensive.
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The project was halted for a bit as I have been struggling to find work to pay the bills and so after 2 years working for myself, i've decided to join normal life again and I've got a 9-5 starting soon.
Major headaches have been sorting out gear linkage and pedals. Was hoping to find something that I wouldn't have to chop up much, but it doesn't seem like there is anything.
Gear lever. Thought late Pandas had double bowden linkages in 1994. Turns out they have a cable and rod. I cannot find a Cinquecento sporting anywhere in scrappies, so I took the linkage off an 899cc this weekend, only to find it pushes and pulls the cables the exact opposite ways. There must be more levers on the Sporting box to reverse this then? Anyway, I decided to just cut the original Punto housing down to size and shove it in underneath the car. It works.
Pedals. Clutch is a bugger because it needs to go a long way to get to the clutch lever- plus I don't have a pedal cause I got a Selecta! I took the pedal set from the Cinquecento, this has a bar that shoots accross to the other side for the clutch, so I am in the midddle of fitting that with the brake pedal too if I can. Fly by wire throttle needs to be screwed to a seperate welded bracket away from the bulkhead so that it lines up with the other pedals.
Other stuff. Using original alloys and tyres from Punto 185/60/14. Not fitting the ventilated big brakes yet. Lowering by 40mm. Y10 anti-roll bar needs fitting.
Once this is done, it should be ready for a test drive. It will have no airbox and heath robinson wiring, but at least I'll get a taste and then I can think about tidying it up.
BTW, I got another Panda today. £0. Five on the drive.
Major headaches have been sorting out gear linkage and pedals. Was hoping to find something that I wouldn't have to chop up much, but it doesn't seem like there is anything.
Gear lever. Thought late Pandas had double bowden linkages in 1994. Turns out they have a cable and rod. I cannot find a Cinquecento sporting anywhere in scrappies, so I took the linkage off an 899cc this weekend, only to find it pushes and pulls the cables the exact opposite ways. There must be more levers on the Sporting box to reverse this then? Anyway, I decided to just cut the original Punto housing down to size and shove it in underneath the car. It works.
Pedals. Clutch is a bugger because it needs to go a long way to get to the clutch lever- plus I don't have a pedal cause I got a Selecta! I took the pedal set from the Cinquecento, this has a bar that shoots accross to the other side for the clutch, so I am in the midddle of fitting that with the brake pedal too if I can. Fly by wire throttle needs to be screwed to a seperate welded bracket away from the bulkhead so that it lines up with the other pedals.
Other stuff. Using original alloys and tyres from Punto 185/60/14. Not fitting the ventilated big brakes yet. Lowering by 40mm. Y10 anti-roll bar needs fitting.
Once this is done, it should be ready for a test drive. It will have no airbox and heath robinson wiring, but at least I'll get a taste and then I can think about tidying it up.
BTW, I got another Panda today. £0. Five on the drive.
darkneutron
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I'll be very interested to see how your lowering works out - your rim/tyre combo is something like 30mm bigger than mine, and I'm running 15s!
I'm aiming for a 60mm or so drop, so any clearance issues you run into will be interesting. Obviously wheel ET will play some part, but we have the same width tyres.
I'm aiming for a 60mm or so drop, so any clearance issues you run into will be interesting. Obviously wheel ET will play some part, but we have the same width tyres.
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TBH, I'm only using the combo because it was what was on the donor car, but I think the car looks good on them. I do want the rolling radius though as I want to retain the legs. Ultimately I think it is likely that 195/55/14 will be a better choice, but the nearly new pirellis on them at the moment are 'free'!
Does anyone have any specific recommendations for lowering springs? Anyone got any in the shed? Seen a few manufacturers selling them. All seem to be 40mm drop. I assume the springs are stiffer too? Very hard to know which is suitable as manufactuers give no specs for the springs. I am very close to buying some Jamex ones from ebay for £69 delivered. They are the cheapest I can find and I am thinking if I don't know anything about any of them and they all seem the same, I might as well get the cheapest ones!
Does anyone have any specific recommendations for lowering springs? Anyone got any in the shed? Seen a few manufacturers selling them. All seem to be 40mm drop. I assume the springs are stiffer too? Very hard to know which is suitable as manufactuers give no specs for the springs. I am very close to buying some Jamex ones from ebay for £69 delivered. They are the cheapest I can find and I am thinking if I don't know anything about any of them and they all seem the same, I might as well get the cheapest ones!
