Tuning 1368cc 16v - Classic Panda 100HP

[lewey]

When you buy the car ask to see the latest MOT stuff (esp if there was an emmissions test). As its all computerised now it tells the mot tester if they have to do one and its hit or miss on 92 to 94 cars (my 94 panda gets away without )

I thought all injection cars registered after August 1992 have to have a 'cat' test. It doesn't matter if you have one, but the emmisions restrictions are so high, you normally need one. Carb models would keep the 3.5% CO until cat tests were made mandatory in 1994. Hence the hit and miss emissions requirements- carb and injection Pandas were optional between 92-94?

Also, what you said about the engine not changing the emmissions requirements is of course correct. I have been caught up in kit cars and SVAs for too long, where enigne age is important as the vehicle is 'newer' than the engine.

Extra space for exhaust will be handy if I want to fit the exhaust parts from the punto, so I will probably go for a really late one now.

 

[Xsisley]

sounds like agreat project !!
im currently sorting out a 1242cc 8v on my bench for my panda 4x4.
and i have managed to find a correct size twin choke weber.:slayer:
and iv got a lump of solid alu for the adaptor.:yum:

but i plan to make my "road panda" in a year or so.
i was going to use a 1242 16v. but this sounds even better !!!!

what bhp is the 1368 16v engine as standard,100 ???, and is it called a 1.3 superfire?

is there no way of fitting 2 dizzys/2 coils or sumthing. when i do this in the future i would much rather do it carbed !!!!!
oww car elecronics confues me. im not that bad at them, but they still confues me !!

GOOD TOPIC !!!!

aran.

 

[lewey]

what bhp is the 1368 16v engine as standard,100 ???, and is it called a 1.3 superfire?

Older version (mine must be very early) made 95 and since the Panda 100 HP, they seem to be quoting 100 for other models too. It is known as the 1.4 Superfire. It is exactly the same as the 1242 cc 16v, but with a longer stroke and slightly bigger bore to make the 1368 cc. Also has different alloy sump parts. There are now completely alloy 1368s being built. There have been an explosion of more developed FIRE engines from FIAT which us poorer folk will be looking at soon I imagine. I noticed the other day that the FIAT Palio had a 1.0 16v FIRE engine as the basic model from 2005ish. Curious.

is there no way of fitting 2 dizzys/2 coils or sumthing. when i do this in the future i would much rather do it carbed !!!!!
oww car elecronics confues me. im not that bad at them, but they still confues me !!

Would only need the one dizzy to be honest Arron! If you wanted to use a carb, then an ignition only aftermarket ECU/sensor setup would be cheap enough to install, but the setup costs and trouble can be significant if you have good standards. Simply use existing crank sensor and plug into ECU and your coil pack and it would work with a basic map.

 

[lewey]

..to clarify my last comment, you wouldn't therefore need any dizzy Arran as you would be using the crank sensor as a point of reference of engine position, rather than a dizzy output shaft. Modern electronics attached to a dizzy by manufacturers is simply a way of retro-fitting new ignition concepts to old engines as it is cheaper than developing new parts.

I managed to get the whole loom stripped from the car and wholly contained within the engine bay. I have reduced it to requiring only a couple of 12v inputs to function. It starts and runs. There are issues, but it works. In the photo, you can see the accelerator pedal at the bottom with a multi-plug hanging over it which is my "ignition barrel". On the bottom left, the original key is in its immobiliser antenna so as to keep the ECU happy. I imagine this to become a dangling immobiliser type when in the Panda. The only wire heading off into the car is the fuel pump wire.

My issues are that the ECU makes a slightly frightening high-pitch noise for 10 seconds when ignition is activated. I believe it does this as it is always in the first-time turn on phase as if I have disconnected the battery. The dash is not remembering time and stuff and is resetting every time. I need to figure out where the "memory" wires are for these two things or the ECU will never learn! Neither of these things need to be sorted now though.

The biggest question raised is what level of integration I should go for in the Panda. As it stands, I will be adding two fuse boxes, one in the car and one under the bonnet. Many of the fuse boxe's functions are disabled and wasted for non-engine related fusing and switching. I can conceive the perfect loom where all the fuses and wiring from the punto are used to power lights, indicators and other non-engine stuff too, meaning the original fuse boxes in the panda can be dispensed of. This would be probably be my aim.

I think for simplicity I will be replacing the Panda clocks with the Punto ones.

I couldn't find anything about the 'clutch switch', but have decided that it will be for reducing revs in cold start conditions so the user can more easily engage a gear. A function I will do without.

This is the first time I have documented a project like this and I am finding it quite useful to gather my thoughts.

 

[panda-sport]

looking good (in a messy sort of way)

I think the 1.0 16v FIRE was for South America only

I'll be interested to see how you squeeze the accelerator pedal into the panda!

 

[lewey]

Yes the 16v 1.0 is one of their 'world' options which includes south america. Just thought what interest that would generate in the non-superfire cars forum if that were available cheaply!

I think the pedal will go in fine having placed it in my 750. may need a small amount of the length taken out, but that is easily done. I need the project Panda now to start taking bits out of otherwise I'm going to start tearing apart the 750 and that won't do.

Probably won't be that much progress for a bit until project Panda arrives + I better do some work to pay for the Punto (self-employed website designer).

 

[lewey]

Have decided I do want a late 1994 onwards cable select type gearbox Panda. I need the extra space afforded by not having the selecting rods as I want to use the Punto exhaust manifold, etc.

Have aquired a Y10 front anti roll bar and bits from Trevor Nicosia, the ex-Y10 racing fellow. Pick up mid-April after Oulton park event.

Have made dash 90% operational in terms of warning lights and associated functions and fixed memory loss issue.

ECU still reseting on igntion though.

 

[Xsisley]

such a great project/topic !!
im jelous because i wanna do my road panda NOW!!
(im being silly i should get my 1242 8v twin choke done, thats gonna be good on a 4x4.)

what would happen if you dropped your 1368 16v engine into a old carbed panda... and then removed all the injection and throttle body. and then stuck on a carb and a simple electronic fuel pump.
and then bodged 1 dizzy onto one of the cam ends. and used that..
with the standard panda elecronics..???

would that run ??

cheers
aran

also where do you live ????

 

[panda-sport]

Have aquired a Y10 front anti roll bar and bits from Trevor Nicosia, the ex-Y10 racing fellow. Pick up mid-April after Oulton park event.

I realy do have to get one of these myself

 

[lewey]

what would happen if you dropped your 1368 16v engine into a old carbed panda... and then removed all the injection and throttle body. and then stuck on a carb and a simple electronic fuel pump.
and then bodged 1 dizzy onto one of the cam ends. and used that..
with the standard panda elecronics..???

would that run ??

cheers
aran

also where do you live ????

Welding a dizzy onto the end of a camshaft would require an expert machinist and careful balancing.

This is however possible and would work with an 8v 1242 dizzy. Probably very, very badly at first. But like all ignition and fueling techniques, could be made to run fine with expert attention and a modern chassis dynometer.

However, DON'T DO THIS AT ALL EVER. ARE YOU NUTS?!

Stick with electronic ignition on the 16v engines, even if you do want to use carbs. I suppose it all depends how much performance or usability you want from the car. Most people talk about an engine upgrade for performance reasons. If poorly setup, you could end up with a downgrade, even with the jump from 999cc to 1242cc.

I live in Tenbury Wells, it is written under my username in each post?

 

[FuzzyPanda]

Have aquired a Y10 front anti roll bar and bits from Trevor Nicosia, the ex-Y10 racing fellow. Pick up mid-April after Oulton park event.

Hi, what date would this be? I live roughly ten minutes from Oulton Park.

 

[lewey]

Hi, what date would this be? I live roughly ten minutes from Oulton Park.

14th April. I am not attending, it is merely an opportunity for Trevor to pass the bits to his friend who lives right by me apparently in Worcestershire. I'll then get them from him later. Complicated!

 

[lewey]

Re: Project Panda arrives

June 1994 1108cc Selecta CLX. 11 months MOT, 4 months tax. No rust underneath and only a tiny bit on the drivers door! Great nick really. Bargain. The transmission slips pretty badly and it only just got up my drive. I'll be getting rid of it shortly if anybody needs it for spares or knows how to fix it.

I will be putting the Punto box in using Cinquecento sporting driveshafts. Been a right game getting all the bits, but it will all go in fairly quickly now. Only thing to sort is the pedals and gear change. Going to see how the punto gear lever goes in in a minute and obviously no clutch pedal at the moment! Tempted to move all the pedals over from the Punto now, but we'll see.

 

[panda-sport]

Looks like a good one, very straight. The Punto linkage can be made to fit as that is what Oldshool used on one of his projects . I think the red handled connectors on the top of the thottle body will foul the panda bonnet, it all gets a bit close with the extra hieght of the block cheers Damon

 

[FuzzyPanda]

Nice car, that.

 

[Tony M]

Looks like a good one, very straight. The Punto linkage can be made to fit as that is what Oldshool used on one of his projects . I think the red handled connectors on the top of the thottle body will foul the panda bonnet, it all gets a bit close with the extra hieght of the block cheers Damon

was his the car that had the slot cut out for the induction filters to pop through?
very well finished... but i didn't fancy that in the rain.

 

[Plug]

Hmm, nice interior, not! But I guess most of that will be going in the bin..

What are you planning for the outside? I prefer the Q-car look myself, and I'd have to keep that selecta badge simply for the humour value.

Cheers,

Plug

 

[BenW]

Very nice, got a snazzy rear wiper arm on it.

Hop that foot rest comes out of the footwell easily so you can fit the clutch

 

[Xsisley]

looks like a very nice car to go for it with. well done !!

so now you have a cable gear shifted panda.
with an injection system !
sounds good. !

how easy is the electronics from here ??

aran.

 

[J333EVO]

Only just came across this thread, excellent project.

Fly By Wire throttle bodies are controlled by the ECU, and are linked into ABS sensors and traction control, how it works is when you put your foot down on accelerator the ECU works out exactly how much torque the wheels can take and gives only as much as it believes it can take, this is why they can sometimes feel a little slow witted, or even like driving an elastic band as the throttle mapping can be a little crude on some cars, the 06 reg 1.2 Corsa courtesy car I am driving at present certainly is, its blooming awful, one of worst I have driven, the Stilo 1.8 I drove recently was marginally better.

As for difference in this engines power and the Panda 100HP its only 3-4bhp as Panda is rated in German standard PS which is slightly higher than our bhp so IIRC its 98.5bhp so only really a v.small difference which can be accredited to more aggressive mapping.

You are better going to a 1.2 16V inlet manifold from early models recognisable by being half alloy half plastic which means you can port match the alloy section to the head and has benefit of cable operated throttle body, this inlet manifold is also smaller than the 1.4 so eases the fitting difficulty in fowling the bulkhead.

We are doing a similar type project in a Seicento Abarth see here for our progress https://www.fiatforum.com/lets-talk-fiat/91558-seicento-1-4-16v-project.html

Aaron.