Technical 1.9JTD engine runs but...

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Technical 1.9JTD engine runs but...

Hi johnson550,
Sorry I should have said:eek:....I took the opportunity to 'Blank Off' the exhaust end of the EGR with some aluminium plate that I had....So it operates correctly, but just opens and closes without letting any exhaust gasses back in.....
Its been a long day working on the 'Marea' again.....:(
 
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This is getting a 'Bit Complicated' and involves the 'Black Art of Electrics'...
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I have looked through a Marea pdf and have found the ECU 'Pin-Out' to describe what the relays do and what they are controlled by.
Relay 23 is the 'Main Injection System Relay'
Relay 25 is the 'Auxilary Fuel Pump Relay' ( the electric one in the fuel tank )
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Traditionally the Relays are controlled by a trigger signal coming to connector number 86 and exiting the relay through connector 85. Pins 30 and 87 are connected when the relay operates to let the larger current circuit be connected.
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According to the description...
Pin 4 is the Actuator power supply.
Pin 5 is the Injector / ECU power supply.
Pin 13 is the Injection Relay.
Pin 24 is the Auxilary fuel pump relay.
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So Pin 4 on the ECU then operates Relay 25 and it operates Relay 23 which then seems to power the ECU at pin 4..:confused:....
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Is this diagram wrong or is it too late in the day and I am tired ....relays seem to be powered by AND to power the ECU..which cannot be right..:confused:
 

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Hi,
I very strongly suspect that the scanner that I have been using is of no use at all ..and it has certainly NOT been helping with the diagnosis.....
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I am usually pretty good with Electrics...not electronics.... and this has me..:bang:
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I think that the 'Multiecuscan' is by far the best hope for this problem.So I think that I need to get the cable and a new screen for the lap top....as it got broken:eek:...(and I was not the one who dropped it :D)...and then revisit this problem.
I will keep looking at the relay...but I think that it will probably be a wait and use the 'Multiecuscan' and go from there......I will report back but there will be a delay whilst I get the parts to make it work....
Thanks for all the advice...(y)
 
Hi again,
im afraid the ECU connections mean NOTHING to me,


lets backtrack a little,


when you checked the 2 x sensors and then the car ran perfectly for @20 mins,
you SAY the TEMP was normal,
was this compared to the @215 'C or whatever you were getting before..? or just on the vehicles TEMP gauge..,

when you did all this the INJ warning light went out..,

can you go through the same jobs again, and try to see if you can get hte INJ light cleared.. BUT don't actually run the engine.., see how long / what happens when the relay clicks + INJ light comes back on,

possibly a worn fuel pump .. relay cuts out after so long trying..??,

just an idea while you are waiting for your ECU scan set-up,

charlie
 
Hi Charlie,
Just to try and clarify.... I cleaned out the EGR and blanked it off ..and since it was so much easier to get at with the EGR removed I undid the MAP sensor gave it a really good clean as it was filthy and refitted it.
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I started the car and NO RED Injector light.....Hurrah I thought.... All gauges working, revs, fuel, temp, even the speedo, but after running the car for 20 or 30 minutes it suddenly cut out. Restarted the car sat in it and after a while 'Click' and the car stopped........Removed the glove box and found the 'Clicking' relay which is the black one in the photo and I believe that it is the 'Auxilary Fuel Pump Relay'.
Tried different relays...no difference ...still clicks out and the engine dies.
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After the car has been running for a while the relay clicks out and the engine cuts. I have tried 'bridging' the relay which means that the fuel pump simply continues to run (without the key in the ignition) and have started the car...but after a time it simply cuts out in exactly the same manner as before but without the click.
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The scanner that I was using appears to be Useless.....It does not show faults when I disconnect things and continues to show 215 degrees Celsius in the engine coolant and air inlet temperature even with the sensors Disconnected.
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I hope that this helps........ The Red Injector light is GONE...But...the engine is still cutting out :(.........I am going to get the laptop working and to buy a cable so that I can connect the laptop to the ECU and use the 'Multiecuscan' program to get a Real and Accurate reading of what my ECU is doing.
 
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Hi,
OK update time....as promised :)
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New LCD screen for laptop fitted and works ..
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Gendan 'Multiecuscan', delivered and installed on the laptop....10 Error codes detected!....with 4 that turned the red warning light ON.
Probably mostly caused by my 'playing around' ,disconnecting things earlier with the 'other' varigate code reader that had me running around in circles and :bang:
Note to all ..the Varigate does NOT work on the Fiat Marea...
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Its too late to run the engine now as my son is asleep in bed...:(.......but the 'Multiecuscan' cleared ALL the error codes with a single push of a button on the laptop, and I could test the EGR valve, glowplugs, fans, etc etc from the drivers seat by just pressing a button on the computer..... So here's hoping that tomorrow will either see the Marea running perfectly or at least the ECU telling me CORRECTLY what is wrong with the engines electronic sensors so that I CAN actually fix it.
Thanks for all the advice.
 
Hi franglais,
Yes its raining and I got a bit wet....:)...but I don't mind because the 'Multiecuscan' came up trumps (y)
....As promised the update......
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Attached is an image of a screen shot pasted across into the 'Paint' program.
But just in case its a bit small...the codes are:-
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P 0101 Air flow meter...... not worried.....I can fix or replace that....
but the 'Killer' code that has been causing the 'Click' and turning off the engine is...
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P 0191 Diesel Pressure Control .....THIS failure turns on the Red Engine Warning light and CUTS the engine.......Problem FOUND :D (y)
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Now I think that it is this part in the photos below .... but please can someone confirm that it IS the part that I have put the red arrow pointing towards ?.
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The 'Multiecuscan' is absolutely GREAT....ALL errors found and cleared from my previous 'messing about' .....Engine run up and air flow fault found within a few seconds.....then after a few minutes...the 'Click of Doom' occurs.... the engine is tuned off by the ECU and the fault is displayed almost instantly. So I need a new 'Diesel Pressure Control' unit to connect into the common rail fuel line.
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We were within a hairs breath of scraping this car because the potential garage bill would have far outweighed the value of the car.....BUT...the 'Multiecuscan' has found the problem..so once the part is confirmed ( by you guys, please ...) I can buy a new one and the Marea is SAVED to run for another 100,000 miles..:D
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Thanks for all the help and advice(y).
 

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Number 14 is the pressure sensor connected to the fuel line/rail in this picture.
Number 12 is the pressure regulator connected to the pump and the workshop manual has instruction on howto replace it.

I'd suggest you use the multiecuscan to draw a graph out of the fuel pressure, does it show pressures over 1350bar (pump max) or does it show too little?
The ecu fault "no signal" is sometimes a guess.

If it jumps around it might just be a bad contact in the sensor wiring (I am assuming it is an analog sensor), and the ECU assumes the regulation is broken?

If it stays dead flat and does not change, maybe the ECU is trying to increase the pressure but the regulator is not responding.

I would also be interested what MES says about the fault (in the picture you have the maf error selected).
 
Hi Neverth,
It looks like 14 in the picture but mounted into the fuel rail the other way up.
I will try to get the 'Multiecuscan to draw a graph of the fuel pressure but I am not finding that part easy to understand at the moment....:(
Quote:-
If it jumps around it might just be a bad contact in the sensor wiring (I am assuming it is an analog sensor), and the ECU assumes the regulation is broken?
I have no idea if it is analog or not its a 2002 Marea 1.9JTD 110 so I guess analog..

Quote:-
I would also be interested what MES says about the fault (in the picture you have the maf error selected).
I have the MAF highlighted because THAT was the error code when I took the 'screenshot' of the computer display screen . ( I guess that MES is the multiecuscan) I can try and get a 'screen shot' of the Diesel Pressure Control fault page but its not easy in the rain with a mains extension cable as the laptop has no battery :eek:

I monitored the pressures in 'real-time' on the display page and I remember seeing readings of over 750 bar and the readings were very close to what the ECU was expecting right up to 5,300 revs
 
Hi Nererth,
Here are 3 screenshots in Paint....The first shows the 'Diesel Fault Code'
The second is one of the 'Recorded Graphs' with Fuel Pressure expected and delivered, the fuel sensor voltage and the fuel pressure regulator %......
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It seems to be that the Fuel Pressure Regulator % is at fault and after it has 'bottomed out' at 1 % the ECU stops the engine with the 'Click'
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Please can someone confirm the exact part that I need to replace to sort this problem out ?
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Thanks in advance
 

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I assume around the 249.8 second mark the engine shut off?
My guess is also on the pressure out of regulation -> engine shutoff.
The software description about the code suggests the sensor, but just looking at the graphs it looks more like the regulator cannot keep the desired pressure.

I would expect a faulty sensor to read too little, not too much pressure.


So number 12 on the picture.
In the downloads section on this forum you should be able to find workshop manuals for bravo/brava/marea (doesnt matter, same engine).
From there Volume 4 -> Engine -> 1910 JTD 2000 Range, on page 20 you have picture of the pump and the regulator, page 36-37 has instructions for removing and refitting the regulator.

Part number seems to be 0281002488, I would get one from scrappy for testing if you dont want to spend too much money on it.


My best guess, we don't have diesel mareas/bravos here in finland...
 
Hi Neverth,
Thanks for the reply. I disconnected the unit number 12 on the car and got a new separate fault code, so I will try the Fuel rail sensor first and see how I get on.... a scrapyard is looking like the best bet, as the price of a new part is simply CRAZY :eek:
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I am sorry to ask this but I cannot find the 'Manuals' in the downloads.
I can find the Bravo section in the downloads but it only contains 'Handbooks'...... Am I looking in the wrong area or do I need more 'Posts' to be allowed to 'see' it ?
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Are there no diesels because of the winter temperatures ?
 
Seems I remembered it wrong, here is a link.

No diesels becouse the company in chagre if importing them was stupid.
Even the current importer thinks it is great idea to have only basemodel engines (1.4 90hp) with no optional extras.
 
Hi Nereth,
FANTASTIC...Thank You very much indeed for that link it is exactly what I have been looking for (y)
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I will go to the scrap yard tomorrow to try and get the fuel pressure sensor...and then it to the Marea.
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Do you know if the Forum has a similar page for the 2003 Doblo JTD ? The engine is slightly different and so is the electrical system.
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I find it incredible that 'the Importer' for Fiats only brings in the base model...:eek:...why aren't FIAT kicking his ass to sell more and better specification cars ?

Do Finns 'Import' cars personally from the other member states of the European Union ?....
Technically all cars sold in the Union comply with a common set of regulations and so SHOULD be easily transferable between member states....Although I am still arguing THAT bit of legislation with the French Authorities.....since I do NOT need a 'Certificate of Conformity' on a 1998 and newer Car....:bang:....and I have the EU Act and Section in French to prove it :D
 
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Yes, from germany mainly, but finland has this nice "temporary" (been since 1958) car tax, that you need to pay even if you bring used cars here.
This is against EU regulations, and there are lawsuits where the customs has made the taxed amount way too much.
And even if the consumer wins the lawsuit, he/she is charged with the costs to go to court (since you are suing the goverment and they dont like it), so to get your illegaly taken money back you need to pay them more money than they took from you.
 
Yes, from germany mainly, but finland has this nice "temporary" (been since 1958) car tax, that you need to pay even if you bring used cars here.
This is against EU regulations, and there are lawsuits where the customs has made the taxed amount way too much.
And even if the consumer wins the lawsuit, he/she is charged with the costs to go to court (since you are suing the goverment and they dont like it), so to get your illegaly taken money back you need to pay them more money than they took from you.

sorry to wander off topic with this, but could an appeal not be made to the EU court in bussels?
 
Hi Guys,
just to update the Topic....
I replaced the Fuel pressure sensor with one from a scrap yard and still got the same readings........:(....and the car stopped...:eek:.....
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Then I looked at the graphs more CLOSELY ... Look at the Fuel Pressure regulator reading.....It drops to 1 % and then the 'Actual Fuel Pressure' starts to climb and to deviate wildly from the 'Required Fuel Pressure' and so it all goes wrong....
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(I think that you were right... Neverth.....The Fault Code was the pressure sensor...BUT the Fault itself probably lies with the Regulator ! )
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I plugged the 'MultiECUscan' into a Fiat Doblo 1.9JTD...and got the second graph.....Look at the difference in the 'Fuel Pressure Regulator' Percentages on the two graphs!
Comparing the two it now looks to me like the 'Fuel Pressure Regulator' is actually to blame for the fault...so I am getting a replacement one from a scrap yard and I will try again in a few days once I get the part and I will update you all accordingly...
Thanks for the support....(y)
 

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Hi Guys and in particular Neverth,
Sorry for the delay in updating this thread...:(
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Finally managed to get a Fuel Pressure Regulator fitted .
Multiecuscan connected and engine started ......and...It ran PERFECTLY(y)
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The required Fuel Pressure and the Actual Fuel Pressure NOW work very closely with the Pressure regulator varying its percentages as the engine ran through the rev range and for well over 45 minutes with NO problems....
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I cannot recommend the Multiecuscan enough ...It is Absolutely BRILLIANT piece of kit and well worth the cost.:worship:...It has saved the Marea from the Scrapyard....HURRAH.:D
 
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