General 1.4 Multi air - cam belt etc

Currently reading:
General 1.4 Multi air - cam belt etc

I'm guessing you're saying it's scary in case the belt fails while the engine is running?

This is what you should do after fitting a new belt - or "fiddling" with the cam timing in any way. Before trying to spin the engine on the starter motor you should turn the engine over for no less than 2 complete revolutions to check whether there is any obstruction - which would most likely be due to the valves and pistons coming into contact because you've timed it wrong. You need all the plugs out to do this so there is no compression (which interferes with the "feel") and turn the engine over slowly so there is no stored energy in the flywheel. Turn it over fast and you can still bend a valve due to the flywheel effect.
Yes, lose a belt on an interference engine and the valves are toast. Lose the belt at high rpms and most likely going to need a new head.
I have rebuilt several of the older engines 70's-80's Fiat and GM and always gently turned them by hand before firing them up.
 
I am guessing the multi is an interference engine. That's the scary part.
An intersting point which I have no firm knowledge about. On the inet side then one could say "no belt = no hydrualic valve pressure= no valve opening.

However what about the exhaust side??????
 
An intersting point which I have no firm knowledge about. On the inet side then one could say "no belt = no hydrualic valve pressure= no valve opening.

However what about the exhaust side??????
A non interference engine is one where the valves will not hit the piston top when the crank is turned with out a riming belt.
Interference means the open valves will hit the piston without the timing belt or improperly timed.
If you lose a belt while engine is running the valves will stop moving leaving some open and some closed but the lower end will keep turning for a while and the pistons will hit the open valves.
 
A non interference engine is one where the valves will not hit the piston top when the crank is turned with out a riming belt.
Interference means the open valves will hit the piston without the timing belt or improperly timed.
If you lose a belt while engine is running the valves will stop moving leaving some open and some closed but the lower end will keep turning for a while and the pistons will hit the open valves.
Yes you have explained the interferance perspective.

However on the Multiair engines the inlet valves are only open (thus depressed into the combustion chamber) if hydraulic pressure AND the main camshaft is being driven.

I suspect that in a cam belt failure it is possibly unlikely that the inlet valves will be open enough to be a piston collision problem. That said the exhaust valves will certainly be a potential issue.

Certainly as the 1.4 MultiAir engine is a derivative of the 1.4 TJet engine (as I understand it?) then I would assume that if the Tjet is and interferance engine that the 1.4 MultiAir will be as well but damage will possibly limited to the exhuast valvles and not the inlets.

I have no proof either way but am just suggesting that in the MultiAir engines inlet valve piston collision might not be an issue.
 
Yes you have explained the interferance perspective.

However on the Multiair engines the inlet valves are only open (thus depressed into the combustion chamber) if hydraulic pressure AND the main camshaft is being driven.

I suspect that in a cam belt failure it is possibly unlikely that the inlet valves will be open enough to be a piston collision problem. That said the exhaust valves will certainly be a potential issue.

Certainly as the 1.4 MultiAir engine is a derivative of the 1.4 TJet engine (as I understand it?) then I would assume that if the Tjet is and interferance engine that the 1.4 MultiAir will be as well but damage will possibly limited to the exhuast valvles and not the inlets.

I have no proof either way but am just suggesting that in the MultiAir engines inlet valve piston collision might not be an issue.
Sounds like you know more about these engines than me.
I have had my 500X for not quite a year have yet to find much info on it and it is driving me crazy.
If what you say about the clearance is correct then it eases my mind a bit but if I read right there still could be some damage.
 
Sounds like you know more about these engines than me.
Well I'm not so positivly sure which is why I used the words "possibly unlikely" and "certainly be a potential issue" :)
I have had my 500X for not quite a year have yet to find much info on it and it is driving me crazy.
If what you say about the clearance is correct then it eases my mind a bit but if I read right there still could be some damage.
Any cam belt failure on a modern high compression ratio engine, which the 1.4 multiair is I believe *IS*, is going to bend the valves. However on the Multiair one hopes that the damage is done only to the exhaust valves. If the inlets were to be hit then not only will the valve be damaged but aslo the Uni/Multiair unit as well.

Here is a good technical article article on the Multiair system.

https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=auto_pres
 
An intersting point which I have no firm knowledge about. On the inet side then one could say "no belt = no hydrualic valve pressure= no valve opening.

However what about the exhaust side??????
I believe the default for the inlet valves is slightly open without pressure to enable the car to crank Easyer until it get enough oil pressure to activate them
 
I believe the default for the inlet valves is slightly open without pressure to enable the car to crank Easyer until it get enough oil pressure to activate them
That makes sense as otherwise no air would enter the engine for combustion. Small opening is probably not going to be an interefence issue. However on full throttle & power I do suspect that things may go bang.

Would be nice to hace a definitive answer other than my primitive and simple assumptions.
 
This caught my eye in s130's link.
Going by the info shown I will reiterate that I think the dealer sold Morgan on something he didn't need yet.




belt.jpg
 
This caught my eye in s130's link.
Going by the info shown I will reiterate that I think the dealer sold Morgan on something he didn't need yet.




View attachment 431184
I noticed that too. Interesting to see the advice about rotating the tyres - not something which is common over here, but still seems to be very popular on your side of the pond. However although U.S. gallons are quite a bit smaller than U.K. gallons I think U.S. miles are the same as ours? 152,000 miles without changing the belt would really, really, worry me a lot!

Interesting to see the U.S recommended oil change interval is 8,000 miles. No bad thing, but considerably at variance with the European (yearly or 10,000 miles I think? and even, with the right oil, an extended interval of 18 months, which is insanity in my view) I have noticed though that you guys over there have a tradition of doing regular oil changes - a whole oil change "industry" has established around it.

I've never worked on a multiair so it was very interesting for me to see that the locking tools look exactly the same as the kit I use on our "ordinary" FIRE engines:

P1100540.JPG
 
Been thinking too about whether you'd be likely to suffer inlet valve damage if the timing belt were to break - or skip a number of teeth - while the engine is running. Although I have never worked on a Multiair - or Twinair - I find the concept very interesting and have read a number of technical articles and other "stuff" about them. In simple terms I think I understand that the camshaft lobe drives a pump plunger which pressurizes engine oil. The valve has a plunger sitting on top of it and the two are connected by an oilway. If there was nothing else involved then, as the camshaft lobe depressed the pumping plunger, oil would be pumped to the plunger over the valve which would cause it to depress - and thus open - the valve. The "clever" bit is that there is a solenoid controlled relief valve which can allow oil to bleed from this system. So, for instance, if the solenoid valve is closed then the valve will behave just as a normal valve will - which is to say it will start to open as the lobe depresses the plunger and close again when the lobe clears the plunger. On the other hand if the solenoid is activated and kept open the cam will still depress it's plunger but the oil will be ejected through the "spill" and can't develop any pressure so the plunger over the valve can't act on the valve so it will stay closed. The clever bit comes in how the electronics modulate the opening and closing of the solenoid valve. In effect giving the ability to provide almost infinitely - between limits - valve timing. Very clever.

However, we are interested in whether some, or at least one, of the valves could remain open if the belt breaks while the engine is running. Well, if any particular valve was in the part of it's cycle where the solenoid was closed and the cam plunger had pressurized the oil so opening the valve then if the cam stops rotating at that moment the valve must stay open? I presume there will be a certain amount of leak back in the system so the valve, if left like this for long enough, will slowly find it's way back onto it's seat but this will be far too slow to avoid the fast moving piston from contacting it. The repercussions of the valve hammering back on the oil in the multiair unit - which seems to be well known to be a bit "fragile"? - would also be most undesirable too I think. So, all things considered, much better to spend a bit of money on timeously renewing the belt than risk a lot of money if the belt breaks?
 
The repercussions of the valve hammering back on the oil in the multiair unit - which seems to be well known to be a bit "fragile"? - would also be most undesirable too I think. So, all things considered, much better to spend a bit of money on timeously renewing the belt than risk a lot of money if the belt breaks?
Indeed. Unless you know your engine is non intererence then a cam belt failure, unless like in the 1.9 16V diesel engine with sacrficial rocker arms, the there is nothing but grief. Even with the scraficial rocker arms you are still into "I did not want to go there" land

As for non interferance engines do you really want to be recovered by a breakdown service?

I'll stick with 5 or 6 years for cam belt and water pump changes.

What happend to the good old "gear drive" timing?
 
Indeed. Unless you know your engine is non intererence then a cam belt failure, unless like in the 1.9 16V diesel engine with sacrficial rocker arms, the there is nothing but grief. Even with the scraficial rocker arms you are still into "I did not want to go there" land

As for non interferance engines do you really want to be recovered by a breakdown service?

I'll stick with 5 or 6 years for cam belt and water pump changes.

What happend to the good old "gear drive" timing?
I agree. Being "recovered" as an experience can vary greatly from "not too bad" to "utterly devastating" and you can bet your boots it's going to do it somewhere really inconvenient or dangerous. Not for me thanks.

I suppose gear driven gets very expensive when we're talking about overhead cams? Mind you, anyone remember the problems with the fibre gear on the old Ford V6 - think I'd rather have a chain than one of those, at least a chain rattles and gives you some warning.
 
Indeed. Unless you know your engine is non intererence then a cam belt failure, unless like in the 1.9 16V diesel engine with sacrficial rocker arms, the there is nothing but grief. Even with the scraficial rocker arms you are still into "I did not want to go there" land

As for non interferance engines do you really want to be recovered by a breakdown service?

I'll stick with 5 or 6 years for cam belt and water pump changes.

What happend to the good old "gear drive" timing?
I have been searching for info on the multi air and from what I gather, if the belt goes the head goes with it.
I figure I still have a few thousand miles and a couple years before a belt change becomes critical so until then I will play it fast and loose.
There are some versions of the 1.4 that has a timing chain.
I have also come up with another question.
There is an auxiliary battery on some of the Crysler products.
If the main battery is disconnected there is still power to the system and damage can be done by inadvertently touching a still hot wire.
That is my next search.
 
Back
Top