General 1.4 Multi air - cam belt etc

[Organ Morgan]

Hello there. I have 18 reg 1.4 multiair Pop. It's only done 25,000 miles in its 5 years but the dealer has raised with me the issue of replacing the timing belt - sorry, I am thick about these things - is cam belt the same as timing belt?? Anyway, they suggest this will be £540 or so and if I want the water pump done at the same time it will be another £120 or so. The dealership offers a service plan which I could join anytime for £22 a month which carries with it a 10% discount on all work carried out.

Does this definitely need attention soon?

Do these figures sound about right?

Is now the moment to consider moving to an 'ordinary' local garage instead of a Fiat dealer... the vehicle is no longer under warranty etc.

Any thoughts or advice most welcome

Many thanks.

 

[s130]

Cam belt / timing belt are on and the same. Timing belt change intervals on Fiats vary a little depending on mileage, usage conditions, etc. 5 to 7 years is typical. Would not recommend going over 7 years.

You are being quoted typical main dealer prices. For comparison in 2020 an independent Fiat specials did my 5 years FULL service. This included brake and clutch fluid change, cam belt kit (belt, tensioner, water pump and aux drive belt), spark plugs, all filters (oil, air, pollen), coolant change, software update and of course labour. I supplied the parts required. (I was going to do the service myself but had put my back out). Service cost was £330 inc VAT. Parts cost me £163. Total bill £493 inc VAT.

Moving to an independent could save you a lot of money HOWEVER an independent Fiat specialist should? have the required timing tools for the cam belt change. Another independent may not and if they don't rent the tool then the timing may not be precise if the just "mark up" everything and then change the timing belt.

As for the dealer Service Plan I can't comment and would want to know EXACTLY what the plan covers and what is extra. I suspect the service plan is just a normal type of service plan for oil, filters, etc. and brake fluid changes, coolant changes, plugs, etc. could be Cost Plus items. I note the Fiat website says that for cars over 5 years old you have to contact the dealer directly for service plan information so I could not easily check the plan out.

Where are you located? Have you checked out https://www.fiatforum.com/forums/garages.40/ for options near you?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Absolutely agree with s130 above and with the recommendation on the time period. It's not usually the belts themselves which fail but more the bearings in either the tensioner or water pump, which then leads on to a detensioned belt and "bang"! I planned all along to do the cam belts in our Panda and my boy's Punto (I aim to do them at around the 5 years but I'm a confirmed pessimist!) Out of interest I got quotes from our main dealer and a couple of independents near me. One of the independents was our local Fiat specialist. The main dealer price was much more expensive, especially when the water pump was included in the price as I think they price from a menu. By that I mean they have a menu price for the cam/timing belt and a price for doing a water pump. The physical work for doing either of these tasks is very similar but if you're doing the pump at the same time as the belt then most of the preparatory work - taking off the engine mount, striping the belt covers out of the way, detensioning the belt, etc, etc, - is the same. The additional work is undoing the pump bolts and pulling the pump out of the front of the block which takes a few minutes only. Then cleaning the old sealer off, applying new and bolting the new pump back in. Half an hour at the very most, even for a chap who takes a smoke half way through! Of course a coolant change while you're at it is wise and then bleeding the system through but that will take someone with experience a matter of just a few minutes and add just a wee bit for the price of the new coolant.

The independents all quoted including a water pump at minimal extra cost - many kits include the pump if you specify it - and were considerably cheaper. I'd go for an Italian car specialist if you have the choice but most competent independents should manage this engine. Interestingly, when specifically asked, the main dealer said they would only change the pump if needed. Personally I defy anyone to be able to tell whether a pump, which has lasted the life of one cam belt and may display no weakness at that time, is fit to last another 5 years minimum without problems? I think it's a no brainer to just always do the pump.

I think that when a car is still in the warranty period staying with a factory dealer is highly adviseable because they have access to stuff like software updates and factory advice sheets which most indies will not be able to easily access. soft/firmware updates become less likely as a car ages though and many of the problems become common knowledge so once out of warranty I'd go with a make specific indy every time. As suggested above, have a look through the recommended garages thread or let us know roughly where you are, someone on here might be able to recommend a good garage they have experience of.

 

[Organ Morgan]

Thank you both very much indeed for your comprehensive thoughts and advice - much appreciated. I'm near Salisbury, so Bath, Bournemouth and Southampton are all in striking distance if needs be for independents. And thank you for including that link to garages list. I'll check it out now. And apologies for not doing my research on this site properly before! I realise now that this is not the first time this topic has been raised! (And it probably won't be the last!!)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thank you both very much indeed for your comprehensive thoughts and advice - much appreciated. I'm near Salisbury, so Bath, Bournemouth and Southampton are all in striking distance if needs be for independents. And thank you for including that link to garages list. I'll check it out now. And apologies for not doing my research on this site properly before! I realise now that this is not the first time this topic has been raised! (And it probably won't be the last!!)

You're very welcome. My daughter lives just north of Salisbury and, in fact, we're just back from spending time down there and in Devon. Around Salisbury is a very nice part of the country and we greatly enjoy spending time with them. I'm sure you're right about cam/timing belt questions in the future. It's a subject which "worries" many people, probably because of the mayhem and expanse, with most engines, if one goes wrong in a big way. The good news is that most of our more common engines are quite easy to do, especially if you earn your living at this sort of thing, so many small concerns won't blink an eyelid at the prospect - still needs to be done with care and due diligence though.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with yours - do let us know what you decide and how it goes.

 

[s130]

Thank you both very much indeed for your comprehensive thoughts and advice - much appreciated. I'm near Salisbury, so Bath, Bournemouth and Southampton are all in striking distance if needs be for independents. And thank you for including that link to garages list. I'll check it out now. And apologies for not doing my research on this site properly before! I realise now that this is not the first time this topic has been raised! (And it probably won't be the last!!)

If you wan't to venture towards Southampton then it HAS TO BE Small Car Services.

https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/s...list-southampton-winchester-eastleigh.493684/

Whilst out of the way for you they do have a loan car and just down the road is Marwell Zoo.

I just asked them and they can do a full 5 year service in a day but the car must be with them 1st thing in the morning. Time restriction is that the water pump has to be done first and sealant left to cure for a few hours.

PM me if you want more info and we can talk on the phone if required.

 

[vexorg]

The additional work is undoing the pump bolts and pulling the pump out of the front of the block which takes a few minutes only. Then cleaning the old sealer off, applying new and bolting the new pump back in.

He-man jock, after trying a few gentle approaches it ended up with a crowbar and destroying the pump pulley to get the water pump off.
Sealant is a pain too, just the access to get some kind of scraper in there to clean it up. I took a bit longer only becaue I didn't want to have to worry about leaks and doing it again.

 

[Organ Morgan]

You're very welcome. My daughter lives just north of Salisbury and, in fact, we're just back from spending time down there and in Devon. Around Salisbury is a very nice part of the country and we greatly enjoy spending time with them. I'm sure you're right about cam/timing belt questions in the future. It's a subject which "worries" many people, probably because of the mayhem and expanse, with most engines, if one goes wrong in a big way. The good news is that most of our more common engines are quite easy to do, especially if you earn your living at this sort of thing, so many small concerns won't blink an eyelid at the prospect - still needs to be done with care and due diligence though.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with yours - do let us know what you decide and how it goes.

Many thanks indeed, PAJ. Yes, a lovely area - we're very lucky.

 

[Organ Morgan]

If you wan't to venture towards Southampton then it HAS TO BE Small Car Services.

https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/s...list-southampton-winchester-eastleigh.493684/

Whilst out of the way for you they do have a loan car and just down the road is Marwell Zoo.

I just asked them and they can do a full 5 year service in a day but the car must be with them 1st thing in the morning. Time restriction is that the water pump has to be done first and sealant left to cure for a few hours.

PM me if you want more info and we can talk on the phone if required.

Yes, that's great advice - I have formed a very strong impression of them as well. Lovely, honest website, and a good review on this forum. I had noticed the loan car availability and altogether, we can make it work, I am sure. My normal Fiat dealer is in Wincanton so the whole coming and going is a faff anyway. The prospect of saving a few hundred pounds makes the prospect of an entire day out very appealing!

 

[arekp]

You could DIY.
Details here

 

[Organ Morgan]

You could DIY.
Details here

A kind thought, but, no, I really couldn't - absolutely no facilities or any experience apart from topping up fluids and changing the odd wheel. I can't even stop my rear wiper blade from screeching!!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

He-man jock, after trying a few gentle approaches it ended up with a crowbar and destroying the pump pulley to get the water pump off.
Sealant is a pain too, just the access to get some kind of scraper in there to clean it up. I took a bit longer only becaue I didn't want to have to worry about leaks and doing it again.

Have to admit although the pump in our Panda came out quite easily the one in my boy's Punto did put up a bit of a struggle! Maybe depends on whether the sealant is the original Fiat stuff - which on the sumps is really tenacious - or and aftermarket brand, like the loctite Si 5980 I favour? Absolutely a bit of extra time getting the face squeeky clean always pays off.

 

[Organ Morgan]

Yes, that's great advice - I have formed a very strong impression of them as well. Lovely, honest website, and a good review on this forum. I had noticed the loan car availability and altogether, we can make it work, I am sure. My normal Fiat dealer is in Wincanton so the whole coming and going is a faff anyway. The prospect of saving a few hundred pounds makes the prospect of an entire day out very appealing!

Just thought I would update on this now that work has been done... (last week). I went ahead with Small Car Services and thought it was an excellent set up. Dean is the boss/owner - very friendly, welcoming etc and you just felt straightaway you were in the hands of someone who knew what he was talking about. One easily forgets what a difference it makes, and how much more reassuring it is, to be greeted by the person who will be involved in your car on the day and isn't just a receptionist doing their job. Dean kept me informed during the day as to when the car would be ready, greeted me on my return to pick it up with the bill all ready to go. I think the bill came to about £540 for a full service, water pump and timing belt. This was approximately half of what my main dealer had offered and although they offered what, I must admit, was a generous discount, it was still substantially above Dean's price. The only disadvantage to me was the distance from home, but I must wrestle with that and see what I want to do next year. Meanwhile, I recommend Small Car Services very highly and am thankful to have found such an honest, straightforward and reasonable garage.

 

[s130]

Just thought I would update on this now that work has been done... (last week). I went ahead with Small Car Services and thought it was an excellent set up. Dean is the boss/owner - very friendly, welcoming etc and you just felt straightaway you were in the hands of someone who knew what he was talking about. One easily forgets what a difference it makes, and how much more reassuring it is, to be greeted by the person who will be involved in your car on the day and isn't just a receptionist doing their job. Dean kept me informed during the day as to when the car would be ready, greeted me on my return to pick it up with the bill all ready to go. I think the bill came to about £540 for a full service, water pump and timing belt. This was approximately half of what my main dealer had offered and although they offered what, I must admit, was a generous discount, it was still substantially above Dean's price. The only disadvantage to me was the distance from home, but I must wrestle with that and see what I want to do next year. Meanwhile, I recommend Small Car Services very highly and am thankful to have found such an honest, straightforward and reasonable garage.

For those that know me I'm increddibly careful and critical of those that I trust my car to especailly as for over 50 years I've worked on all my Fiat's from engine rebuilds to more complex servicing (e.g. cam belts) . I've sung the praises of Dean and Small Car Services in the past and do so again especially as others are agreeing with me.

The only monkeys you'll find are down the road at Marwell Zoo

 

[Zaphod]

Hello there. I have 18 reg 1.4 multiair Pop. It's only done 25,000 miles in its 5 years but the dealer has raised with me the issue of replacing the timing belt - sorry, I am thick about these things - is cam belt the same as timing belt?? Anyway, they suggest this will be £540 or so and if I want the water pump done at the same time it will be another £120 or so. The dealership offers a service plan which I could join anytime for £22 a month which carries with it a 10% discount on all work carried out.

Does this definitely need attention soon?

Do these figures sound about right?

Is now the moment to consider moving to an 'ordinary' local garage instead of a Fiat dealer... the vehicle is no longer under warranty etc.

Any thoughts or advice most welcome

Many thanks.

Been thinking about this and sixty thousand miles has been the rule of thumb for changing timing belts. I gather the car is a 2018 so it is six years old. unless the car has set for several years without running the belt should still be good for another thirty or forty thousand miles. IMO the dealer is just drumming up business.

 

[s130]

Timing/Cambelt change intervals have always been a confusing and variable subject with respect to when to change.

For your 1.4 Multiair the Fiat Official Service advice is:

"Areas that are not dusty: recommended maximum mileage 120,000 km. Regardless of the mileage, the belt must be replaced every 6 years. Dusty areas and/ordemanding use (cold climates, town use, long periods of idling): recommended maximum mileage 60,000 km. Regardless of the mileage, the belt must bereplaced every 4 years."

So unless you fall into the 4 year criteria (dusty, cold climates, town use, long periods of idling) then it is 6 years, 120,000km, 75,000 miles.

Now some vhicle makes have longer change intervals, others possibly shorter. I think at one point Honda claimed the cam/timing belt was a lifetime part.

Personally I would go with 6 years so you have another year to go.

One reason for cambelt failures / timing issues and even bent valves in the auxilary drive belt. The on modern cars and the 500X are muti grooved serpentine belts. These don't generally snap but deteriorate and shred like then edge threads on a carpet weh pulled. These stringy threads then get wrapped around the crank pulley throwing the timing out of timing and even damaging the belt.

At every service the auxilary belt should always be checked to avoid issues and if in doubt change it.

 

[Zaphod]

Timing/Cambelt change intervals have always been a confusing and variable subject with respect to when to change.

For your 1.4 Multiair the Fiat Official Service advice is:

"Areas that are not dusty: recommended maximum mileage 120,000 km. Regardless of the mileage, the belt must be replaced every 6 years. Dusty areas and/ordemanding use (cold climates, town use, long periods of idling): recommended maximum mileage 60,000 km. Regardless of the mileage, the belt must bereplaced every 4 years."

So unless you fall into the 4 year criteria (dusty, cold climates, town use, long periods of idling) then it is 6 years, 120,000km, 75,000 miles.

Now some vhicle makes have longer change intervals, others possibly shorter. I think at one point Honda claimed the cam/timing belt was a lifetime part.

Personally I would go with 6 years so you have another year to go.

One reason for cambelt failures / timing issues and even bent valves in the auxilary drive belt. The on modern cars and the 500X are muti grooved serpentine belts. These don't generally snap but deteriorate and shred like then edge threads on a carpet weh pulled. These stringy threads then get wrapped around the crank pulley throwing the timing out of timing and even damaging the belt.

At every service the auxilary belt should always be checked to avoid issues and if in doubt change it.

I am guessing the multi is an interference engine. That's the scary part.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If it's any help, we have a Panda - 1.2 8 valve engine (not Multiair) and my boy has a Punto - 1.4 8 valve (not Multiair but does have VVT). Both recommended 5 years or 72,000 miles belt change interval. The Panda is very much a "shopping car" and only covers about a couple of thousand miles a year or less. The Punto is my boy's daily driver for getting to and from work so covers more mileage but a lot of it is in heavy city traffic. Neither car exceeds the mileage recommendation so I work on the 5 year time recommendation. Because I work in my driveway I start looking for a day of good weather a couple of months or so before the 5 years are up and do the change then. I always use a full kit (belt, tensioner and water pump) because a failure in any component which is part of the belt's drive train could potentially be catastrophic. So far, doing it at this interval, I've not taken a belt off which was showing any signs of failure but I have had a couple of water pumps which were quite "gritty" when spun by hand. I suspect the belts are more than capable of going a lot longer but the water pump bearings are a bit less reliable - I suspect due to coolant ingress through the seal?

 

[vexorg]

If you carefully turn it by hand then you;ll know it's good before starting

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I am guessing the multi is an interference engine. That's the scary part.

I'm guessing you're saying it's scary in case the belt fails while the engine is running?

If you carefully turn it by hand then you;ll know it's good before starting

This is what you should do after fitting a new belt - or "fiddling" with the cam timing in any way. Before trying to spin the engine on the starter motor you should turn the engine over for no less than 2 complete revolutions to check whether there is any obstruction - which would most likely be due to the valves and pistons coming into contact because you've timed it wrong. You need all the plugs out to do this so there is no compression (which interferes with the "feel") and turn the engine over slowly so there is no stored energy in the flywheel. Turn it over fast and you can still bend a valve due to the flywheel effect.